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Old 09-01-2019, 08:13 PM   #31
Ron Evans
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I am just going through this test and media info does report V-Log as full but it is in a rec709 format so do not know if FULL referencing within a REC709 for V-Log-L on the GH5 is more or less than "limited" in a rec2020 for the HLG both 10bit. In other words does it report colour range relative to the " colour primaries " etc which is of course is HLG, BT 2020 which is twice the range of REC709

I think the full reference in media info for V=Log_L GH5 file refers to the colour range of rec709 ( which is what media info reports for V-Log_l file ) which is half the range of rec2020. I believe v-gamut on the GH5 is less than full rec2020 so that is why it reports "limited" for the HLG file--maybe?

They may of course be the same range reporting against two specs one is larger and the other smaller . So the ranges may be the same for V-Log_L and HLG with V-Log-L being bigger than rec709 and HLG being smaller than rec2020. I cannot find them now, will look again but there were several reports of testing that showed HLG had a larger dynamic range than V-Log-L since the would both be 10bit no reason why the encodes should have different colour range.
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Old 09-01-2019, 08:34 PM   #32
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Found one reference on another forum so will not quote but consensus was V-Log-L is limited to rec709 range so may not be as effective as HLG which is within rec2020. I am sure others can do a search. Apparently V-Log-L limitation is also true for the DVX200 etc.

Yes main advantage of HLG is instant playback on SDR or HDR TV's for broadcast.
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Old 09-01-2019, 08:49 PM   #33
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Vlog gamut /Vlog is it own color space it is not rec 709. :)
That's the reason when you apply the PCC it adds a 709 destination lut.

Again that's why you can easily grade any log footage in to any color space.
Here is the page from S-log.
I will try to find the page of Vlog (l)
I have it somewhere. :)
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Old 09-01-2019, 09:22 PM   #34
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I think the discussion when GH5 came out also centered on whether it actually recorded the full range and there were several responses from Panasonic that it was restricted to rec709 when recorded internally. It was this that continued the discussion that led a lot of people now to using HLG. The Panasonic responses then also refereed to the DVX200. Will try and find them too. It still raises the issue of what media info is referring to when it says full and limited. Full rec709 compared to limited rec2020 may be very different.
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Old 09-01-2019, 11:20 PM   #35
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This just a quote from a post " Further update on this. Had clarification from Panasonic that the V-Log L gamut on GH5 & GH5s is in fact V-Gamut, not Rec.709 as some have been claiming on other forums.

The V35 / V-Log IDTs will therefore work "

So I think that media info is showing that V-Log-L is "full" relative to rec709, HLG is " limited " relative to BT2020 ( which is twice the range of rec709 ) I expect that both V-Log-L and HLG both have the same V-Gamut range from the sensor. Several test show them both to have dynamic range of about 11.5 stops. Just their log curves are different and viewing colour management. Some view that HLG is cleaner likely because of V-Log exposure if not done well and diferences in the shadow and highlight log curves.
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Old 09-02-2019, 01:46 AM   #36
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Found the answer--I think.

HLG colour range is limited ( and fixed in the GH5 ) to 64-940 ( I guess because it goes back to the broadcast side ) log is 0 to 1023 ( again fixed in GH5 ) all the other picture profiles can be changed to different ranges. So yes you are correct Steve. Of course if you are going to broadcast you will be back into the same limitation ? Likely not a limit for me anyway as most go to SD DVD or Bluray 8 bit rec709 anyway and I really correct rather than grade for a look.

I found quite a few pieces of info comparing dynamic range of GH5 but nothing that really showed limitations of colour range as well. It was mentioned but not well demonstrated to my mind. HLG has a clear advantage in being able to be shown immediately on both SDR and HDR TV's. Also the file can be saved as an archive and likely shown again in the future with no action needed. An advantage that I see for my archives. Editing software may very well respond to the file correctly but I am not TV's will correctly apply a V-Log-L LUT to view the file.

Good learning experience. Not having been interested in grading for a look so had not researched into this area in any detail. All my attention has been to exposing to make sure I get detail without blowing highlights or loosing shadow detail. Colour sort of came along for the ride !!

Thanks Steve
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:14 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Evans View Post
Likely not a limit for me anyway as most go to SD DVD or Bluray 8 bit rec709 anyway and I really correct rather than grade for a look.
Firstly I have learnt so much from following this thread (which no doubt the o/p will not have read and will ask the same question in 3 months...but I digress).

I'm never really sure what we call the sort of shot matching on shows that Ron refers to. Is it really grading- I dont think so. It's matching and tweaking. What we (Ron and I) are doing on shows on the timeline, is really the equivalent of what the Vision Engineer aka "Racks man" does on the truck, on a live multicam O/B shoot. Differences are, cant speak for Ron, I do it over a coffee and a biscuit or three, whereas the V/E does it in Real Time.

FWIW some here know that my brother in law is a TOP broadcast TV lighting director, currently in his 23rd or24th season on the Proms, does weddings too ie Harry and Megan last year, lights theatre stuff going out to cinemas etc and he has said the "Racks man is the first member of his team he books on a gig.

On the London show we filmed two weeks ago there is only ONE "look" we want- it just needs to look GOOD!
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:25 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Evans View Post
The orange issues appears in all picture profiles of the GH5 or GH5S, 8 or 10 bit. It must be in the colour science of the Panasonic's because Claire has the same issue with her GH5. I have several shots where a dancer enters stage left with a nice red costume and by mid stage it is bright orange and then goes red again when exiting stage right. Yes it may be white balance due to lighting (camera white balance will shift the colour but not the effect ) but the Sony AX100 and AX53 on the same shot stays solid deep red all the way across the stage. With stage lighting being LED these days the lighting changes colour temp across the stage so whatever camera setting is used it will always have to edited. Fine tracking/keyframing of colour correction is important if a single camera is used as in my case cropped in to simulate a pan in HD from a UHD source.

I expect my goals are different to film makers. I want to have the easiest way for me to expose and get the max dynamic range when I shoot ( no blown out faces and enough detail in shadows but maintain the stage illusion,) and the least work afterwards to create something that looks close to the real performance. No grading just correction. I want the final to appear looking through a window on the performance as it was performed. HLG does this really well and promises an HDR archive with no work for the full stage camera.

I have not looked at the comparisons in info media but will do a little test and see. According to specs I think both have the same v gamut range . The GH5 or GH5S does not have the full V-Log like the EVA1 or Varicam it is V-Log_L which may account for the several views that HLG has more dynamic range than V-Log-L

Will report back when I have done the test
the only panasonic DSLR cameras with full vlog is the S1H, S1 and i think the S1R
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:27 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by GrassValley_SL View Post
I am not hinting at the orange right now.
HLG has a limited color space because it is ready for "air"

Vlog has a full color range which in grading will give you more options.

It is a limited color range vs full color range to start....
I have noticed that a lot of people over look this fact. :)

Thanks for that info Steve... I also read that somewhere as well.
the drawback with HLG on the gh5/gh5s is that it's h.265.
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:28 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Evans View Post
I am just going through this test and media info does report V-Log as full but it is in a rec709 format so do not know if FULL referencing within a REC709 for V-Log-L on the GH5 is more or less than "limited" in a rec2020 for the HLG both 10bit. In other words does it report colour range relative to the " colour primaries " etc which is of course is HLG, BT 2020 which is twice the range of REC709

I think the full reference in media info for V=Log_L GH5 file refers to the colour range of rec709 ( which is what media info reports for V-Log_l file ) which is half the range of rec2020. I believe v-gamut on the GH5 is less than full rec2020 so that is why it reports "limited" for the HLG file--maybe?

They may of course be the same range reporting against two specs one is larger and the other smaller . So the ranges may be the same for V-Log_L and HLG with V-Log-L being bigger than rec709 and HLG being smaller than rec2020. I cannot find them now, will look again but there were several reports of testing that showed HLG had a larger dynamic range than V-Log-L since the would both be 10bit no reason why the encodes should have different colour range.

I think vlog L clips the highlights at 80ire
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