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Old 06-08-2019, 04:27 PM   #11
Liverpool TV
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Originally Posted by ulyssesvideo View Post
yes.. as I said.. when you have a proper usb4 portable drive.. it will be designed to read/write at speeds upto 40Gb/s or there about... samsung makes great usb3 and 3.1 drives and will be making usb4 drives as well.
That has nothing to do with what you said earlier, you questioned the thread and have been proven completely wrong.

Why don't you just admit your mistake and lack of understanding of the thread and the clear real world example and move on.
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:36 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Liverpool TV View Post
Thank you Bern.

And by extension, and as you've pointed out, a single SATA 3 SSD won't saturate the USB-C bus. Therefore no gain what so ever in using USB 4 or any other transport/bus system with a higher bit rate/bandwidth beyond that of the storage medium.

Plus. My example is something that can be done right now and not waiting for a new USB standard that won't make any difference to this example and will require at the very least the expense of a new interface card, although likely a new M/B and whatever else will be needed, enclosures etc.

Honestly, this example was for Edius users interested in such things and it's a proper real world example. Why do some people feel the need to attack a thread, especially when they are obviously ignorant to the technology being used ?

Anyway, thanks again Bern.

Cheers,
Dave.
u need to stop acting as if your being attacked by people on this site.
I never attacked you. no one here has any interest to attack ppl. if you dont like what other people say then that's your problem and to say your being attacked...why do you think that?? . I simply expressed my interest on this matter and I never compared or said you system was no better than usb4... me ignorant??? nope... just expressing my views...
and for the record... you have a youtube channel..... is that channel for only edius users??? nope! its great that you like to share your ideas on things etc... don't have an issue with that.
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:41 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Liverpool TV View Post
That has nothing to do with what you said earlier, you questioned the thread and have been proven completely wrong.

Why don't you just admit your mistake and lack of understanding of the thread and the clear real world example and move on.
never question the thread buddy... never question your video.. I stated something from a previous thread... hense why you had to create a video about what you think is the best way to do something... we all have our own ways of doing things... weather it is right or wrong is not up to you to decide.
you need to stop twisting what ppl say because its not healthy on this site....
I have the right express my views as you do.. but when you twist what other ppl are saying... thats when it goes too far..
and you have done this same behavior towards me and others in the past.


stop it!

i am done with this because its getting beyond a joke now with you twisting crap with what I said... not interested in getting banned from this site. but if your looking to get banned.. by all means go for it! I am sure its happen to you before!

Last edited by ulyssesvideo; 06-08-2019 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:51 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ulyssesvideo View Post
yes.. as I said.. when you have a proper usb4 portable drive.. it will be designed to read/write at speeds upto 40Gb/s or there about... samsung makes great usb3 and 3.1 drives and will be making usb4 drives as well.
You are missing the point. USB is not a drive specification, it is a data bus specification. Unless the hard drive specifications can match the usb specifications for bandwidth, the usb bus will still not be saturated.

Your reference to usb 3 and 3.1 drives is irrelavent.

The people making the actual storage devices (Samsung, Sandisk, kingston, etc.) would need to make a device that can hit the 40Gb/s speed.

The USB 4 bus will only be as fast as the device(s) feeding it up to it's maximum 40Gb/s specification. A single fast sata 3 SSD can only supply about 1/8th of that bandwidth (close to the speed of USB3 by the way), so you would need 8 SSD drives running in a RAID0 kind of configuration to saturate the 40Gb/s bus. NVME is a different story, as they are faster, and therefore would require fewer to saturate the bus, but they are also more expensive in comparison.

I don't know about what you consider a usb 4 portable drive, but in my mind an 8 drive array with the required RAID controller in the housing is not my definition of a portable drive.

My point with all of this is that the math tells us that a single SSD can not operate at the speed available to a usb4 connection, so there is no real speed benefit to the usb4 connection with a single drive, but there would be a benefit if the drives get faster or if it is an array of drives to share the bandwidth.
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:57 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by ulyssesvideo View Post
u need to stop acting as if your being attacked by people on this site.
I never attacked you. no one here has any interest to attack ppl. if you dont like what other people say then that's your problem and to say your being attacked...why do you think that?? . I simply expressed my interest on this matter and I never compared or said you system was no better than usb4... me ignorant??? nope... just expressing my views...
and for the record... you have a youtube channel..... is that channel for only edius users??? nope! its great that you like to share your ideas on things etc... don't have an issue with that.
Hi Carl.

You thought you were being smart and attacking the validity of a thread by questioning my understanding of the technologies at hand, simple.

You didn't understand what was going on, very obvious by your lack of technical understanding. Then went further to say "I think you better read up on usb 4 buddy." Which is completely odd seeing as you have been proven wrong.

Then you start deflecting, mentioning my YouTube channel and going on about other meaningless stuff that had nothing to do with the thread.

Your whole comment about USB 4 was completely superfluous and had nothing to do with the example at hand. It was just getting in the way of the video and example. You may just as well have been talking about a fibre storage solution, as that would have been just as irrelevant.

Anyway. It's been made abundantly clear that you were wrong and there's enough proof of that for anyone reading this thread, so no need for me to say anything further on the matter.

If you'd like to talk about the test itself and the its implications for Edius users interested in such things, then awesome.

As far as I can see, there's no other such real world example of this type of workflow for Edius on the forum or anywhere on the web as far as I can see. So I'm going to guess that this example is a first and will be very good for those Edius users interested in such things.

You take care buddy and have a great day.

Cheers,
Dave.
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If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

Is your Robot three laws safe?
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Old 06-08-2019, 05:12 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Liverpool TV View Post
Hi Carl.

You thought you were being smart and attacking the validity of a thread by questioning my understanding of the technologies at hand, simple.

You didn't understand what was going on, very obvious by your lack of technical understanding. Then went further to say "I think you better read up on usb 4 buddy." Which is completely odd seeing as you have been proven wrong.

Then you start deflecting, mentioning my YouTube channel and going on about other meaningless stuff that had nothing to do with the thread.

Your whole comment about USB 4 was completely superfluous and had nothing to do with the example at hand. It was just getting in the way of the video and example. You may just as well have been talking about a fibre storage solution, as that would have been just as irrelevant.

Anyway. It's been made abundantly clear that you were wrong and there's enough proof of that for anyone reading this thread, so no need for me to say anything further on the matter.

If you'd like to talk about the test itself and the its implications for Edius users interested in such things, then awesome.

As far as I can see, there's no other such real world example of this type of workflow for Edius on the forum or anywhere on the web as far as I can see. So I'm going to guess that this example is a first and will be very good for those Edius users interested in such things.

You take care buddy and have a great day.

Cheers,
Dave.
mate.. stop it! attacking me by saying "obvious by your lack of technical understanding" and 'It's been made abundantly clear that you were wrong and there's enough proof of that for anyone reading this thread, so no need for me to say anything further on the matter" is a low act and being a bully!
I never attacked your views on your video....
its becoming clear to all on here your not a nice person when you feel your being attacked by people on this site when they are clearly not.
maybe you need to take a break from this site. I know I am not the only one here on this site who feels the same..
I will be reporting your previous comment with the GrassValley_Admin as harassment.
I do hope you have a fantastic day as well.
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Old 06-08-2019, 05:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by BernH View Post
You are missing the point. USB is not a drive specification, it is a data bus specification. Unless the hard drive specifications can match the usb specifications for bandwidth, the usb bus will still not be saturated.

Your reference to usb 3 and 3.1 drives is irrelavent.

The people making the actual storage devices (Samsung, Sandisk, kingston, etc.) would need to make a device that can hit the 40Gb/s speed.

The USB 4 bus will only be as fast as the device(s) feeding it up to it's maximum 40Gb/s specification. A single fast sata 3 SSD can only supply about 1/8th of that bandwidth (close to the speed of USB3 by the way), so you would need 8 SSD drives running in a RAID0 kind of configuration to saturate the 40Gb/s bus. NVME is a different story, as they are faster, and therefore would require fewer to saturate the bus, but they are also more expensive in comparison.

I don't know about what you consider a usb 4 portable drive, but in my mind an 8 drive array with the required RAID controller in the housing is not my definition of a portable drive.

My point with all of this is that the math tells us that a single SSD can not operate at the speed available to a usb4 connection, so there is no real speed benefit to the usb4 connection with a single drive, but there would be a benefit if the drives get faster or if it is an array of drives to share the bandwidth.
I am referring to these portable drives from samsung...

https://www.ramcity.com.au/data-stor...e/MU-PA250B_WW

I am sure they will produce a usb4 drive as well.
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Old 06-08-2019, 06:15 PM   #18
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After reading through this thread, I think Ulysses needs to apologize to Dave. It may be a minor thing but Dave just made a video to help folks and is also technically correct after being accused of being ignorant of technical details.

Now maybe the new spec will allow for more efficient transfers or management, as new is often improved. But, I think in the end of the day, we all just want the correct facts to be talked about, not who is wrong or right. Using Bern's math below, an NvMe drive will saturate the USB-C interface but not the upcoming USB 4 bus. So maybe there is confusion between the SATA and NvMe speeds? I got the math wrong before I edited this post as I did not pay attention to Gbps instead of GBps… :(

To me, the best thing about this setup is that it is bus powered. Very useful to not have to plug it in the wall.

Hope this can just be resolved as it is small potatoes but polite discourse is important imho.
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Last edited by Bassman; 06-09-2019 at 05:58 AM. Reason: Incorrect statment and math!
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Old 06-08-2019, 07:19 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by ulyssesvideo View Post
I am referring to these portable drives from samsung...

https://www.ramcity.com.au/data-stor...e/MU-PA250B_WW

I am sure they will produce a usb4 drive as well.
The conversion factor from bits to bytes is 8. (B=Bytes, b=bits) This is derived from binary code where there are 8 bits in a Byte.

Those drives are listed as 540MB/s (the limit of the actual SSD in the housing), which using the conversion factor equates to 4320Mb/s. Divide by 1000 to convert to Gigabits is 4.32Gb/s (close to the 5Gb/s bandwidth of USB3) That's a far cry from 40Gb/s.

It would take a drive that is 9.25 times as fast to saturate a 40Gb/s bus. Plugging it into a usb 3.1 does not make it run at 10Gb/s, nor would a USB 4 connection make it run at 40Gb/s. It can only run at the slowest speed of any device in the chain (in this case 4.32Gb/s) when the chain is a serial one. If it is a parallel setup like a RAID-0/stripe set, the 40Gb/s is distributed across the multiple drives.

So once again, until a single drive can provide the bandwidth, you are looking at a drive that can not give the bandwidth that the bus can handle. The way around it is a stripe set of drives to handle a portion of the bandwidth each.

At some point, drives may reach the speeds to saturate the usb4 bus but by that time we will probably be several USB generations beyond that limit, and the same scenario will still apply.

This is just the simple math on how this stuff works.


EDIT: I should also note that even though USB3, as I noted above has a 5Gb/s bandwidth specification, often computers can not reach that limit, especially if the drive controller and USB chip being used do not support UASP (USB Attached SCSI Protocol) which allows the USB controllers to operate in a different mode that is does away with all the USB packet transfer overhead. Without this UASP mode, most computers will top out somewhere in the 3Gb/s to 4Gb/s area.
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Last edited by BernH; 06-09-2019 at 01:40 AM. Reason: fix typo
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Old 06-08-2019, 07:54 PM   #20
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Thanks for the clarification Bern as I changed my post. Did not realize it was Gbps instead of Bytes!
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