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Old 02-03-2019, 05:09 PM   #1
nath
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Default Calibrating MP4 export for Roku Smart TV

Where would you suggest I set my whites and blacks?

The RGB 16-235 range looks to me like it has too much contrast.

And while we are on the subject, what is the significance of the two lines in the waveform, I marked them A and B in the image?

I know the B line helps me place my blacks. But the A line is a mystery.
Attached Images
File Type: png waveform lines.png (200.5 KB, 40 views)
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Old 02-03-2019, 11:32 PM   #2
BernH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nath View Post
Where would you suggest I set my whites and blacks?

The RGB 16-235 range looks to me like it has too much contrast.

And while we are on the subject, what is the significance of the two lines in the waveform, I marked them A and B in the image?

I know the B line helps me place my blacks. But the A line is a mystery.
That depends on your source video, the colour space you are working in/delivering in, and of course the display device itself as per your question.

16-235 is the standard old 8-bit REC601/REC709. (10-bit uses a 0-1024 scale instead of the 0-255 scale of 8-bit)

The lines are for 75% brightness/white and 7.5 IRE (North American NTSC SD Black, also known as the NTSC setup level or pedestal level, where 16=7.5 IRE, 100=235 IRE. NTSC-J used in Japan has no 7.5 IRE black/setup level, so there the black of 16=0 IRE. Technically 16 is black regardless of the NTSC version, it is just mapped different.) The values below 16 and above 235 are supposed to be for the timing signals and extreme whites, respectfully. The super white setting allows video to extend into those areas below 16 and above 235, as illustrated by your screen shots. Essentially, if your camera shot video in those values, you should enable super white to preserve the detail, if the camera didn't shoot in those areas, don't enable super white.

If you push blacks below 7.5 IRE, they may get crushed/clipped to 7.5 by the TV or the Roku if that is all they can display (as in North American models). You kind of need to know what the Roku or TV is capable of before the question can really be answered. That said, if this is not for broadcast where strict level control is enforced or for client delivery, and instead only for personal viewing, I'd say use whatever looks best to you.
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Last edited by BernH; 02-04-2019 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 02-04-2019, 09:00 PM   #3
nath
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Thank you for your detailed explanation! I appreciate it so much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernH View Post
That depends on your source video, the colour space you are working in/delivering in, and of course the display device itself as per your question.
Sorry -- I should have included the PNG file I used to produce these waveform screen grabs. (I am attaching it in this post.)

The source is a HQX file recorded from within Edius. The hardware I used to capture the video-stream is a DeckLink Mini Recorder SDI (422 10bit.) The HD-SDI stream comes from a JVC camera model GY-HM750U.

Quote:
The lines are for 75% brightness/white and 7.5 IRE (North American NTSC SD Black, also known as the NTSC setup level or pedestal level, where 16=7.5 IRE, 100=235 IRE.
Did you intend to write 7.5IRE=16RGB, and 100IRE=235RGB (I think so? But this would suggest that A (below) is correct, and I am not sure about that... please read on.) I guess the part I am not clear about (with a BT.709 project) is what do the 0 and the +100 line represent in RGB -- is it for the content it is coming from, and not the PC monitor?

A) 0 line = 0 RGB and +100 line = 235 RGB

B) 0 line = 0 RGB and +100 line = 255 RGB

C) 0 line = 16 RGB and +100 line = 235 RGB


Rather than A, I think B is correct. But I am not sure. If B is correct the imported PNG is correctly interpreted as "White", and not as "Super White". And the lower line is 7.5.

But now to confuse matters further, moving the mouse pointer over some black (inside the REC image) the Scope will read IRE 0.00 on RGB 16.00. This would indicate that C (above) is true. Or is this because Edius is reading the monitor's RGB value and not the video or image source value? (There is some room to improve Edius' UI.)

Quote:
The super white setting allows video to extend into those areas below 16 and above 235, as illustrated by your screen shots.
As mentioned above, Edius interpreted the PNG as "White" and not as "Super White" content. This makes sense for a PNG to fit within 16-235 scope -- but not to check a waveform read.

Quote:
..., I'd say use whatever looks best to you.
This is what I have been doing for a long time. I have been using the scope, and would check the output on my 4K Smart TV to judge what the final file looks like, but the computer monitor is deceiving. And I am about to write a blog about the subject matter, which pushed me towards looking into it more closely ... like considering setting the Zebra at 8% for the blacks. And maybe somewhere around 92% for the whites.
Attached Images
File Type: png find-black-and-white-level-Color-Bars 2.png (116.0 KB, 6 views)
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Old 02-05-2019, 12:24 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nath View Post
Sorry -- I should have included the PNG file I used to produce these waveform screen grabs. (I am attaching it in this post.)

The source is a HQX file recorded from within Edius. The hardware I used to capture the video-stream is a DeckLink Mini Recorder SDI (422 10bit.) The HD-SDI stream comes from a JVC camera model GY-HM750U.
If the camera can generate colour bars, why not use them for your calibration? That way you can see exactly what the camera is doing.

Using non-standard test patterns like the one you used can result in odd values, unless you know what they should be producing. Using your PNG file I see some very strange results, with parts of the image pushing below 0 IRE (16 RGB) and above 100 IRE (235 RGB). That said, I can't say if your pattern is behaving right or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nath View Post
Did you intend to write 7.5IRE=16RGB, and 100IRE=235RGB (I think so? But this would suggest that A (below) is correct, and I am not sure about that... please read on.) I guess the part I am not clear about (with a BT.709 project) is what do the 0 and the +100 line represent in RGB -- is it for the content it is coming from, and not the PC monitor?

A) 0 line = 0 RGB and +100 line = 235 RGB

B) 0 line = 0 RGB and +100 line = 255 RGB

C) 0 line = 16 RGB and +100 line = 235 RGB


Rather than A, I think B is correct. But I am not sure. If B is correct the imported PNG is correctly interpreted as "White", and not as "Super White". And the lower line is 7.5.
Yes, the 16 and 235 numbers are RGB values. Normally the 7.5 IRE level is only seen on an external scope if the output and scope are NTSC for North America, as it is normally the output hardware that adds the setup. Most NLE software scopes represent black at 0%.

I am currently running Edius 9 with the re-designed scopes, where black is at 0, and am attaching a screen shot of a set of ARIB bars and how they line up on the scopes. I always found the scopes in prior Edius versions to be a little odd in that they did display the 7.5 IRE line. In Analog North American NTSC this is where the blacks should land on an outboard scope, with the pluge bars centered around it. I'm also attaching a diagram explaining what the different parts of the ARIB bars are. These would be a better pattern to test with since they are SMTPE standard. You can generate them right in the Edius bin by right clicking and in the popup menu selecting New Clip > Color Bars.

Here is a link to an article explaining an external waveform monitor in North American NTSC usage. http://blog.ieba.com/wp-content/uplo...formVector.pdf

As you will see, it looks suspiciously like the one you have in your Edius version.

Also here is a general guide to adjusting your video monitor visually with bars.
http://shootdatapost.com/blog/2012/2...e-balance.html

You can get much more precise using a probe to calibrate, but unless you are doing critical colour evaluation or grading, a visual adjustment like outlined can get you pretty darn close to where you want to be if you take your time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nath View Post
But now to confuse matters further, moving the mouse pointer over some black (inside the REC image) the Scope will read IRE 0.00 on RGB 16.00. This would indicate that C (above) is true. Or is this because Edius is reading the monitor's RGB value and not the video or image source value? (There is some room to improve Edius' UI.)
Agreed. The old scopes are not the best, but I guess that is why they redesigned them. I can't comment on what you should see with that PNG you used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nath View Post
As mentioned above, Edius interpreted the PNG as "White" and not as "Super White" content. This makes sense for a PNG to fit within 16-235 scope -- but not to check a waveform read.
Once again, I wouldn't trust that non-standard pattern to try to judge by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nath View Post
This is what I have been doing for a long time. I have been using the scope, and would check the output on my 4K Smart TV to judge what the final file looks like, but the computer monitor is deceiving. And I am about to write a blog about the subject matter, which pushed me towards looking into it more closely ... like considering setting the Zebra at 8% for the blacks. And maybe somewhere around 92% for the whites.
Yes, computer screens operate in a completely different way than a TV. A computer monitor operate in full range 0-255 RGB, while a TV and most cameras operate in YUV ranges in analog speak or YCbCr in digital speak. This YUV/YCbCr range maps to 16-235 RGB. This is why we all say that you need a good video monitor or properly adjusted TV attached to you system so that you can really see what you are doing. Scopes are fine for technical measurement, but if you are wondering if there is detail in your black or white that will be crushed/clipped on a video monitor, you will not see that crush/clip on a computer screen until it is really bad on a video monitor. While both can display a video, their operational ranges are completely different.

Your 8% to 92% zebras sound like they are pretty close the 7.5 IRE black with the white point allowing a little overshoot before clipping, although technically small peaks up to about 110 IRE for specular highlights are allowed in NTSC.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg arib bars.jpg (59.5 KB, 9 views)
File Type: png arib bars explained.PNG (102.8 KB, 4 views)
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Old 02-05-2019, 12:28 AM   #5
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most smart TV are set incorrectly in setup menu, they have dynamic contrast and or dynamic brightness enabled

I had to disable about 5 such things in my Samsung TV and all looks perfect now, I even disabled overscan, I want to see every pixel just like in EDIUS preview but all TVs are set to only show you 95%, so set display to 1:1
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Old 02-05-2019, 12:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antonsvideo View Post
most smart TV are set incorrectly in setup menu, they have dynamic contrast and or dynamic brightness enabled

I had to disable about 5 such things in my Samsung TV and all looks perfect now, I even disabled overscan, I want to see every pixel just like in EDIUS preview but all TVs are set to only show you 95%, so set display to 1:1
Good point Anton.

I did say a properly adjusted tv was needed, but I didn't mention all of that crap that is normally enabled on them out of the box.
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