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Old 01-07-2019, 11:50 PM   #31
Liverpool TV
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Originally Posted by noafilm View Post
You could edit in a HD project as that is less demanding for your processor and when the edit is done switch to a 4K project and follow the steps Anton had suggested.
This isn't always going to work, as Edius will change certain processing and effects between the two project resolutions.
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Old 01-08-2019, 06:34 AM   #32
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Do you not think that showing your clients a 4K/UHD version and letting them decide for themselves whats best, the upscaled HD version or the native 4K UHD version, is maybe a better thing to do?
if you have time and are not making videos for business (a living), 4k shooting and delivery is fine

right now, PCs are not powerful enough for a speedy 50p UHD workflow, customers won't pay more, not in Australia, it may be very different in UK
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Old 01-08-2019, 08:57 AM   #33
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if you have time and are not making videos for business (a living), 4k shooting and delivery is fine

right now, PCs are not powerful enough for a speedy 50p UHD workflow, customers won't pay more, not in Australia, it may be very different in UK
I suppose that's the kind of response that's to be expected from someone who doesn't do much creative work or stuff for film and TV.

I also suppose that when you finally get round to buying a good PC and 4K camera you'll feel the benefit that others do who work with 4K for business (a living).

And yes, it's different here in th U.K. Just as I'm sure it is in the rest of world, with the obvious exception of Australia. In the rest of the world it would appear that we value the progress of evolution within our chosen industry, embrace it and will pay for that advancement and thus encourage the customer to also move with the times.

As has already been mentioned in this thread, there are people who give their customers the option to decide if they prefer 4K as opposed to the, by comparison, inferior HD version. Although I'm talking European users here, so obviously this doesn't count for Australian ones.

It sure is a pity that all you guys in Australia don't see the advantage to 4K or are prepared to pay for it. Seriously, you guys are proper missing out.

Anyway, good look with your upscaled HD and DVD deliveries.
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If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

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Old 01-08-2019, 09:56 AM   #34
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how much extra do you charge when you offer 4k? you need to charge at least triple to allow for all extra time needed

I believe my PC is faster than yours
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Old 01-08-2019, 10:16 AM   #35
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how much extra do you charge when you offer 4k? you need to charge at least triple to allow for all extra time needed

I believe my PC is faster than yours
I don't charge extra for 4K. As far as I'm concerned if I'm gonna shoot and edit on that format it's a bit unethical to charge a premium for its delivery. But that's just my opinion. If others want to charge more for 4K delivery when that's how they've shot and posted anyway, then that's up to them.

I don't see the justification in charging any extra for 4K and definitely nowhere near three times as much. Working in 4K doesn't take three times as long in post as long as you know what you are doing and have kitted up for it.

Besides. It's actually cheaper to produce in 4K now with a moderate spend compared to what the spend would have been, say five or so years back, when shooting high end HD. I'd seriously question anyone who believes that it takes three times the price and/or budget. I'd suggest that's just down to a lack of understanding of equipment and workflow.

If that's your main PC spec in your post, then you're quite a ways off the power of my main PC. Mine is way faster than yours. Not that it makes any difference really to me, I'm just really good with Edius, video post and understanding PC builds. But I suppose that's what comes after 30+ years working professionally and creatively in audio, TV and video post. I'd always put my skill and experience ahead of the PC I'm using. The PC is just a tool, I can do amazing things with any level of PC and Edius.
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If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

Is your Robot three laws safe?
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Old 01-08-2019, 10:33 AM   #36
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you need to charge at least triple to allow for all extra time needed
I think it depends how fast you need to deliver your film, if you have a deadline on a daily base then I"d agree you would be looking for the fastest possible way to get your files encoded, in my case I don't waste extra time to render to a 4K file, I let it encode during moments I"m not working on the pc or when I am doing other non editing related tasks on the pc, I even could let the pc run at night and have all 4K files ready for delivery in the morning, I also could use my "older" back up pc and continue editing a new project there while my main pc is encoding. So it depends how tight your deadlines are I guess as I can understand that in your line of work that might be totally different compared to what I do. For me it's easy extra income that I can use to invest in a new pc every 2-3 year, that is, untill 4K becomes standard and we can debate the time lost to encode to 8K :)
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Old 01-08-2019, 11:07 AM   #37
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I don't charge extra for 4K. As far as I'm concerned if I'm gonna shoot and edit on that format it's a bit unethical to charge a premium for its delivery.
That's called doing business, it's the same when panasonic or Sony bring out a camera and then charge extra for codecs or log profiles, you also could call it unethical that they charge extra for something we consider should be included in the first place. They are also just a business trying to make extra money.

I look at it in a different way, I could shoot and deliver in 4K and just raise my price to account for the extra investment in time and hardware, eventhough I hardly waste any time my pc does and that's a cost I have to consider as well, then there is the hardware cost for buying a fast enough pc that I need to replace every 3 year and the small cost of a bigger usb drive to put the 4K files on or the time needed to upload the files so the client can download or the extra cost for more storage space in your "cloud" account, from a business perspective that's making money for time spend and investments made so you can keep investing and paying your bills.

Only in this way the client can't choose, they pay a premium from the start for the best possible quality I can deliver. As long as 4K is not a standard I however will let my clients choose if they need/want it, in that way I can lower my price a bit so that I am more competitive but still deliver a quality HD product for those with "normal" sized tv's and for those that can see the difference or just want a 4K film, they can pay for my extra time.

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Old 01-08-2019, 11:34 AM   #38
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That's called doing business, it's the same when panasonic or Sony bring out a camera and then charge charge extra for codecs or log profiles, you also could call it unethical that they charge extra for something we consider should be included in the first place. They are also just a business trying to make extra money.

I look at it in a different way, I could shoot and deliver in 4K and just raise my price to account for the extra investment in time and hardware, eventhough I hardly waste any time my pc does and that's a cost I have to consider as well, then there is the hardware cost for buying a fast enough pc that I need to replace every 3 year and the small cost of a bigger usb drive to put the 4K files on or the time needed to upload the files so the client can download, from a business perspective that's making money for time spend, either by me or by my pc, and investments made so you can keep investing and paying your bills.

Only in this way the client can't choose, they pay a premium from the start for the best possible quality I can deliver. As long as 4K is not a standard I however will let my clients choose if they need/want it, in that way I can lower my price a bit so that I am a more competitive but still deliver a quality HD product for those with "normal" sized tv's and for those that can see the difference or just want a 4K film, they can pay for my extra time.
You say that's called business. I'd say there's a number of ways of doing business.

You compare the extra charge to what a camera manufacturer does, I'd also say that's unethical as well seeing as you've already bought the hardware capability.

But there is a difference between you charging for more and Sony. Sony will have spent some serious money on R&D, although I still think it unethical for the extra charge when it could have been simply added to a fair price for the hardware in the first place.

The main point I've made is that a 4K production environment will cost less than what a HD production environment would have cost about five or so years ago. So the cost of production actually becomes cheaper by comparison.

Now that being the case, as a business your model for growth shouldn't include passing on the cost of new kit to your clients. That cost, like any other usual business costs, should be accounted for as part of your business running costs and is not something that should be separately chargeable to the customer.

Like you've already said, it's a way to make extra money. In my books, that's the definition of profiteering. While it's something that I disagree with as I believe it to be a negative business practice, I did say that it's something that people do. As a business it's a choice, my choice is to simply not do it.

Here's another way of looking at it. When dealing within sectors of the film/TV industry, where everyone knows exactly what goes on and what's to be expected. If you where commissioning or selling to TV/film, you don't get extra because you've produced in any given resolution. This is because you as the production company should already be at certain level as far as infrastructure is concerned, in order to be able to deliver a film etc. The simple fact is that the product itself has an intrinsic value regardless of its cost to produce. There will always be a profit margin.

Again, like I said earlier. If people want to charge extra for something that they've already shot and produced in 4K, that's up to them. I didn't criticise the practice, I just said it wasn't for me.
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If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

Is your Robot three laws safe?
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Old 01-08-2019, 11:51 AM   #39
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If people want to charge extra for something that they've already shot and produced in 4K, that's up to them. I didn't criticise the practice, I just said it wasn't for me.
That's not how I see it, I"m actually charging less for a HD product because I downsize 4K to HD and I"m charging the amount what I normally would be charging for a 4K product so I"m giving my clients a discount from the start, that's not profiteering.
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Old 01-08-2019, 12:16 PM   #40
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That's not how I see it, I"m actually charging less for a HD product because I downsize 4K to HD and I"m charging the amount what I normally would be charging for a 4K product so I"m giving my clients a discount from the start, that's not profiteering.
If that's how you want to justify it to yourself, then that's fair enough it's your business not mine.


Although I've noticed a certain hypocracy in what your saying and doing. In this thread you've already said that 4K is noticeably better than upscaled HD, you and your cients notice this, and I don't doubt that.

But on that video post I've just made, you've qritiqued it by using Anton's suggestion of TV upscaling for HD.

So, I'm confused. Which is it, original UHD or TV upscaled HD. Because it would appear that you advocate both depending upon when it suits you. Which I must say, isn't very good business for your clients.
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If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

Is your Robot three laws safe?

Last edited by GrassValley_PS; 01-08-2019 at 04:10 PM.
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