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Old 08-01-2019, 03:36 PM   #1
Liverpool TV
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Default Edius 9 and HDR

I just thought I'd separate this topic from the other thread as per Pat's suggestion and to leave the other thread to run its course.

This thread is also a thank you to Jerry for the screen grabs and project information you supplied in the other thread. I've now managed to view your post properly.

I found the information to be very informative and will use it for the setup of a few YouTube videos I'll be doing which I'll also post here on the forum.

While I personally don't have much use for HDR at present, I'll will be using a HDR capable capture card soon. This card is primarily designed for screen capture but will also be useful for other forms of capture. There may be a chance, a slim one, that it may also work within Edius as far as capture is concerned.

It'll also be interesting to export HDR using H.264 and H.265 from Edius for my YouTube intermediates, as this will help to reduce file sizes. It's also gonna be interesting to see how YouTube handles the 709 conversions as well.

Has anyone on the forum used Edius HDR files for YouTube? I'd be very interested in how YouTube's 709 conversions looked and what Edius HDR codecs were seen by YouTube.

Cheers,
Dave.
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Old 08-02-2019, 01:16 PM   #2
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This link might help you:
https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=en

I would use HLG as your transport instead of PQ when using Edius. If you don't have an external UHD HDR monitor with manual color space switching capabilities, you may have issues with the final graded product.

Supposedly, the latest drivers for the BM IP4K and Mini Monitor 4K will flag the file so that the output monitor or tv automatically sees the HDR type. I can't confirm that since I do not have a UHD output card.

BT709 is the easiest, and cheapest, way to output UHD video. HDR gets very expensive when you start adding up the cost of all of the components necessary to output 1 frame of BT2020/2100 HDR content that is graded correctly.
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Old 08-02-2019, 02:35 PM   #3
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Thanks Jerry that's all very useful.

It'll be interesting to see what codecs YT will respond to for both HDR and its SDR version.

Do you know if GV have any demos or examples of such workflows?

Cheers,
Dave.
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"There's only one thing more powerful than knowledge. The free sharing of it"

If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

Is your Robot three laws safe?
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Old 08-02-2019, 02:49 PM   #4
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I haven't found a specific pdf with operational instructions.

This is mostly a trial and error process. If you don't have a 10bit computer monitor or an external HDR monitor, you will be doing guess work all along the way.
I have uploaded HLG HDR product to Youtube and it is identified correctly during playback on my LG UHD tv. However, my colors are still a bit wonky because I don't have a direct pipe to a WYSIWYG HDR visual.
Here is an upload of an HLG h.265 UHD 60p file. It is structurally perfect, but the colors are off. If you play this on a UHD tv it will identify as HLG HDR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBHo8uMGuvQ


If the BM IP4K and Mini Monitor 4K's latest update actually allows it to flag the type of HDR, then my UHD set will work. I do not have manual color space control.

This is still a work in progress.
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If you own the Tutorials and you need help, PM me.

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Windows 10 Pro up to v.1803 Tweaks for Edius Users
http://sgdvtutorials.com/WIN%2010%20...%20V.2.0.0.pdf

Main System: Azrock Z97 Extreme 6, 4790K@4.7Ghz, 32gb ram, Corsair H110, Win10 Pro 64, Samsung 850 pro, E7.5/8.5/E9 on separate SSD drives, HD Spark, Intensity Shuttle, 12tb RAID 0 on backplane ,2 BD, Benq 27 and Hanns-G 28 monitors, CC 2019, GTX 1080ti SC Black.
Both systems on Gigabit network
Second System: EditHD Ultimax-i7, X58, 980x@3.74, Corsair H80, Win764, 24gb ram, Storm 3g, Samsung 840 Pro 256, 4tb and 6tb RAID 0 on backplane, GTX 980ti Classified, Edius 9, Apple 30", Samsung 24", dual BD.

Last edited by Jerry; 08-02-2019 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 08-07-2019, 01:43 PM   #5
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Here's some extra information concerning HDR and I/O cards.

I mentioned the manual colorspace selection needs to be available in your external monitor or tv. When looking for a TV that has manual color space selection, look at Sony UHD's first.

I contacted BM to ask about HDR identification and auto switching based on HDR type.
Here is the response.

Hi again,

The Intensity Pro 4K does not have any HDR support at all so that one won't work in any case. The DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K does have HDR support but does not support the rec.2020 color space and HDR metadata characteristics are not supported, meaning if your monitor cannot be manually set it will not inform the monitor as to what HDR mode it should be in.

It looks like the only card currently that has this support is the DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G. We added rec.2020 support among other things with a recent Desktop Video 11.2 update.

New features and fixes on the DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G:

—Add HDMI timecode support.
—Improve 2Kp23 DCI output on HDMI.
—Fix issue where quad-link SDI input or output may be distorted.
—Fix issue where 3D RGB signals over HDMI may sometimes display incorrectly.
—Improve compatibility when capturing from Sony Playstation 4.
—Add Rec. 2020 colorspace support.
—Add support for HDR metadata packing (ST2108-1), HLG and PQ transfer characteristics (ST2082-10) on SDI.
—Add support for HDR HLG transfer characteristic on HDMI.
—Add support for 4Kp25 DCI playback on HDMI.

With regard to software support, this will only work in Resolve 16 Public Beta 4 and later, paired with Desktop Video 11.2. There is no metadata support in Edius or any other third party app at this time.


Best,
Josh Beverage
Technical Support Representative
Blackmagic Design Inc.
www.blackmagicdesign.com

Ticket Details
Ticket ID: SLC-441-72622
Department: Support
Type: PreSales



As you can see, creating a workable HDR workflow can get very expensive.
The Kona 5 card is approved for Edius 9. List is $2895.

It would be nice if there were cheaper cards available for UHD and HDR. Maybe by NAB, unless there is something being shown at IBC.
But, an I/O card for UHD 50/60 with HDR and auto switching, is expensive. The BM is $895 and as mentioned before, the Kona 5 is listed at $2895.

If all you are doing is passing UHD 25p or 30p, the IP4K or the 4K Mini Monitor will work just fine for you.
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Six Gill DV
www.sgdvtutorials.com
If you own the Tutorials and you need help, PM me.

Vistitle YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMVlxC8Am4qFbkXJRoPAnMQ/videos

Windows 10 Pro up to v.1803 Tweaks for Edius Users
http://sgdvtutorials.com/WIN%2010%20...%20V.2.0.0.pdf

Main System: Azrock Z97 Extreme 6, 4790K@4.7Ghz, 32gb ram, Corsair H110, Win10 Pro 64, Samsung 850 pro, E7.5/8.5/E9 on separate SSD drives, HD Spark, Intensity Shuttle, 12tb RAID 0 on backplane ,2 BD, Benq 27 and Hanns-G 28 monitors, CC 2019, GTX 1080ti SC Black.
Both systems on Gigabit network
Second System: EditHD Ultimax-i7, X58, 980x@3.74, Corsair H80, Win764, 24gb ram, Storm 3g, Samsung 840 Pro 256, 4tb and 6tb RAID 0 on backplane, GTX 980ti Classified, Edius 9, Apple 30", Samsung 24", dual BD.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:10 PM   #6
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question to Jerry or anyone who knows about hdr

can you output HDR video clips from the computer ( not video card to tv monitor ) to a HDR computer monitor when editing from edius 9?

Last edited by ulyssesvideo; 08-07-2019 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:16 PM   #7
Liverpool TV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
Here's some extra information concerning HDR and I/O cards.

I mentioned the manual colorspace selection needs to be available in your external monitor or tv. When looking for a TV that has manual color space selection, look at Sony UHD's first.

I contacted BM to ask about HDR identification and auto switching based on HDR type.
Here is the response.

Hi again,

The Intensity Pro 4K does not have any HDR support at all so that one won't work in any case. The DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K does have HDR support but does not support the rec.2020 color space and HDR metadata characteristics are not supported, meaning if your monitor cannot be manually set it will not inform the monitor as to what HDR mode it should be in.

It looks like the only card currently that has this support is the DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G. We added rec.2020 support among other things with a recent Desktop Video 11.2 update.

New features and fixes on the DeckLink 4K Extreme 12G:

—Add HDMI timecode support.
—Improve 2Kp23 DCI output on HDMI.
—Fix issue where quad-link SDI input or output may be distorted.
—Fix issue where 3D RGB signals over HDMI may sometimes display incorrectly.
—Improve compatibility when capturing from Sony Playstation 4.
—Add Rec. 2020 colorspace support.
—Add support for HDR metadata packing (ST2108-1), HLG and PQ transfer characteristics (ST2082-10) on SDI.
—Add support for HDR HLG transfer characteristic on HDMI.
—Add support for 4Kp25 DCI playback on HDMI.

With regard to software support, this will only work in Resolve 16 Public Beta 4 and later, paired with Desktop Video 11.2. There is no metadata support in Edius or any other third party app at this time.


Best,
Josh Beverage
Technical Support Representative
Blackmagic Design Inc.
www.blackmagicdesign.com

Ticket Details
Ticket ID: SLC-441-72622
Department: Support
Type: PreSales



As you can see, creating a workable HDR workflow can get very expensive.
The Kona 5 card is approved for Edius 9. List is $2895.

It would be nice if there were cheaper cards available for UHD and HDR. Maybe by NAB, unless there is something being shown at IBC.
But, an I/O card for UHD 50/60 with HDR and auto switching, is expensive. The BM is $895 and as mentioned before, the Kona 5 is listed at $2895.

If all you are doing is passing UHD 25p or 30p, the IP4K or the 4K Mini Monitor will work just fine for you.
Hi Jerry.

That's all excellent information, thank you.

I've had success with DirectShow capture within E8 and will be trying a few solutions for DS in E9. One of the options does indeed allow for HDR, so it will be interesting to see if there's any compatibility with E9.

These solutions of course can't be used for Edius monitoring, although HDR play out would appear to be less problematic than ingest with the options for E9 with manual settings.

Cheers,
Dave.
__________________
"There's only one thing more powerful than knowledge. The free sharing of it"

If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

Is your Robot three laws safe?
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Old 08-07-2019, 04:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
This link might help you:
https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=en

I would use HLG as your transport instead of PQ when using Edius. If you don't have an external UHD HDR monitor with manual color space switching capabilities, you may have issues with the final graded product.

Supposedly, the latest drivers for the BM IP4K and Mini Monitor 4K will flag the file so that the output monitor or tv automatically sees the HDR type. I can't confirm that since I do not have a UHD output card.

BT709 is the easiest, and cheapest, way to output UHD video. HDR gets very expensive when you start adding up the cost of all of the components necessary to output 1 frame of BT2020/2100 HDR content that is graded correctly.
Hi Jerry,

Just a quick note when building a HDR worklfow this is a tidbid to consider.
If you have a "cheap card" that allows for a pass-through of the HDR signal and you don't need SDI acquisition it may be better to invest in an EZIO monitor.


We can switch selected EZIO models to any mode you set in the EDIUS project. This takes a way the issue of the monitor not switching as the EDIUS project will dictate the monitor settings. (via USB cable)

We also do this with the expensive as a car Canon monitors. Those are controlled via a network. I have only testes a hard-wire and that works perfect but this can also be done via wifi IIRC.


Last alternative is the injector which will make the monitor switch if this cannot be done manually.

Hope this helps in a way. :)
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:07 PM   #9
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Although I have cameras etc to do HDR I have not really bothered to edit in HDR yet because of the added expense. Clearly at the moment I think the lowest cost of monitoring UHD 60P HDR is with the Decklink Extreme 4K 12G and then feeding a normal 49" Sony HDR TV (or my Ninja V ) . I do currently shoot UHD 60P HLG with one of my GH5's and the Ninja V but use in a 1920x1080 rec 709 project. For Dave I do encode this full stage HLG file to h265 as a smaller file for archive and this looks really good in both EDIUS and Resolve compared to the original ProRes file from the Ninja V. I encoded in Resolve using the NVIDIA encoder which was really fast just less than 2 x realtime. Reduces a 1T Prores file to about 55GB. I am really waiting to see if BM produces an updated set of Decklink cards that deal with proper HDR a bit less expensive than the Decklink Extreme 4K 12G as I only need monitoring no capture or SDI so that card has a lot more capability than I want. Current set of cards are getting old now.
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Last edited by Ron Evans; 08-07-2019 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulyssesvideo View Post
question to Jerry or anyone who knows about hdr

can you output HDR video clips from the computer ( not video card to tv monitor ) to a HDR computer monitor when editing from edius 9?
If you have a 10bit Color grading monitor that supports all of the current types of HDR, you will at least have the ability to see what you are doing by way of HDR color adjustments.
Then you can output by way of a compliant render format. Newer machines with QS can output to h.265 10bit video with 4:2:0 chroma sampling.
Otherwise, Handbrake can take an intermediary and create the h 265 file.
__________________
Jerry
Six Gill DV
www.sgdvtutorials.com
If you own the Tutorials and you need help, PM me.

Vistitle YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMVlxC8Am4qFbkXJRoPAnMQ/videos

Windows 10 Pro up to v.1803 Tweaks for Edius Users
http://sgdvtutorials.com/WIN%2010%20...%20V.2.0.0.pdf

Main System: Azrock Z97 Extreme 6, 4790K@4.7Ghz, 32gb ram, Corsair H110, Win10 Pro 64, Samsung 850 pro, E7.5/8.5/E9 on separate SSD drives, HD Spark, Intensity Shuttle, 12tb RAID 0 on backplane ,2 BD, Benq 27 and Hanns-G 28 monitors, CC 2019, GTX 1080ti SC Black.
Both systems on Gigabit network
Second System: EditHD Ultimax-i7, X58, 980x@3.74, Corsair H80, Win764, 24gb ram, Storm 3g, Samsung 840 Pro 256, 4tb and 6tb RAID 0 on backplane, GTX 980ti Classified, Edius 9, Apple 30", Samsung 24", dual BD.
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