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Old 08-28-2018, 03:29 PM   #1
sherri@tidychaos.c
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Default 23.98 to 29.97

How can I use essential 23.98fps footage in a 29.97fps project without the smeary look? I assume converting that footage, right? If yes in Edius, HOW? (step by step please!) I made a 23fps timeline, can I UP-Convert? If not in Edius, I do have media Encoder....
Any advice appreciated.
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Old 08-28-2018, 10:23 PM   #2
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What's the target? Should the result at 29.97 fps be progressive or interlaced?

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Old 08-28-2018, 10:37 PM   #3
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the other footage on the time line at 29.97 and the 23.98fps are both currently progressive. Target will be progressive 29.97 for all footage.
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Old 08-28-2018, 10:51 PM   #4
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23.98 to 29.97 is normally a progressive to interlaced conversion using 3:2 pulldown for NTSC broadcast compatability. Trying to go to 29.97p can't use the pulldown approach, unless you want to throw away one field of the 29.97i pulldown converted material.

If you don't have a lot of footage, I'd suggest you try using optical flow on the clips. This can work well if the shots are relatively static without fast motion.

Alternately, sending the clips to someone with an Alchemist or Tachyon system would be the next option id the optical flow doesn't work.
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Old 08-28-2018, 10:57 PM   #5
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Lots of footage, lots of motion. Saw that option in one thread of the forum with the same cautions. I did not try it as it is lots of motion, lots of footage - and I have no idea how to do it. There is a small part that it MAY work on - How do I do it? I'll try it on that small part.

Interlace would be fine for final distribution - not broadcasting it.
Don't have the option to send it out either.

How can I convert the motion-heavy majority as you suggested? would the lost field be an issue?
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sherri@tidychaos.c View Post
Lots of footage, lots of motion. Saw that option in one thread of the forum with the same cautions. I did not try it as it is lots of motion, lots of footage - and I have no idea how to do it. There is a small part that it MAY work on - How do I do it? I'll try it on that small part.

Interlace would be fine for final distribution - not broadcasting it.
Don't have the option to send it out either.

How can I convert the motion-heavy majority as you suggested? would the lost field be an issue?
Edius can implement a "soft pulldown", by placing the 23.98 footage on a 23.98 timeline and exporting with a 23.98 over 59.94i with 2:3 pulldown framerate setting. I am attaching a screen grab showing the settings to choose in the print to file dialog.

Optical flow in this example is implemented by putting your 23.98 clip on a 29.97 timeline, right-clicking the clip, and selecting Time Effect>Field Options. There are also other options there that you can try to see if the results would be better, such as Frame Blending, which is probably causing the smearing that you are talking about or nearest neighbor. You will also see de-interlacing options in there that may come in handy if you decide to do the 23.98 to 29.97 interlaced route, but want to de-interlace the footage on the timeline, however the deinterlace functions in Edius are fairly basic, and can cause noticible softening of the image, so I would say that you should try to avoid the Edius de-interlace.

You can achieve a better de-interlace in other software. If you don't have anything else at hand, Handbrake has some pretty good de-interlacing functions, that include de-comb, bob, yadiff, etc. If you were to export from edius with a soft pulldown, put these files in handbrake, and export again using one of these settings to a placebo quality file, it may look a lot better. I would recommend that you take a 10 or 20 second piece and go through this workflow, testing the different options in to see which one works the best in your situation.

DO NOT engage the de-telecine function in Handbrake. This will remove the 3:2 pull and you will be reverted to the original 23.98 footage.
Attached Images
File Type: png 23.98 to 29.97i soft pulldown.PNG (68.8 KB, 22 views)
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Old 08-29-2018, 12:59 AM   #7
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Optical flow could be more useful if it would detect scene changes.

For the interlaced thing, one could put the 29.97p and the 23.98p clips to an 29.97 interlaced timeline. Then apply 'interlaced' to all the clips in BIN/clip properties. Then apply nearest neigjbourhood to the field options of the 23.98p clips. It all ends up with a 29.97 fps interlaced export.

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Old 08-29-2018, 01:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas_Gumm View Post
Optical flow could be more useful if it would detect scene changes.

For the interlaced thing, one could put the 29.97p and the 23.98p clips to an 29.97 interlaced timeline. Then apply 'interlaced' to all the clips in BIN/clip properties. Then apply nearest neigjbourhood to the field options of the 23.98p clips. It all ends up with a 29.97 fps interlaced export.

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Agreed, this is almost the way I would tackle it, but i would do the pulldown step on the 23.98 so that it gets converted to 29.97i properly instead of the nearest neighbor setting, as it technically is the right way to do that framerate conversion, keeping the film style cadence. I would also probably try to do all the 23.98 footage in some kind of batch encode if there are lots of clips, but since Edius doesn't have the ability to set up a batch easily, it would probably be Episode or ffmpeg to do a hard pulldown instead of the soft pulldown offered by Edius.

Being in NTSC land myself, it is always way easier to bring everything up to 29.97i/59.94i than it is to try to get to 29.97p in an edit, but the OP said she wanted a 27.97p output, which means she is most likely on a 29.97p timeline.

Of course, you could also finish and output 29.97i/59.94i as you suggested and then use something like my Handbrake example to deinterlace the Edius output back to 29.97p for the master, instead of doing the clips individually. This would probably result in a more consistent look across all the different framerates also. Depending on the destination, the bitrate could be dialed back from a placebo quality to get a final delivery file if it is an MP4 or MKV that is required.
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:17 AM   #9
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in case of the OP, optical flow is not available in 7.53

also, the OP requires 29.97p end result, so pulldown may not help there
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:24 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antonsvideo View Post
in case of the OP, optical flow is not available in 7.53

also, the OP requires 29.97p end result, so pulldown may not help there
Right you are on the optical flow. E8 was when that was released.

However in Post #5 the OP said interlaced may be fine, so pulldown could be ok. A good quality deinterlace on the 29.97i would get back to 29.97p as long as the image quality is acceptable.
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