Grass Valley Forums Facebook   Twitter   YouTube  

Go Back   Grass Valley Forums > Editors > Editing with EDIUS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-04-2019, 10:25 PM   #1
Fred Dwyer
Senior Member
 
Fred Dwyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Connecticut, U.S.A.
Posts: 538
Default Containers and codecs

I have a 16 year old grandson who is doing some video editing to support his robot club, Amazing what these kids get to do these days. Anyway, he was asking me about some projects I am doing, about file sizes and times to generate. I'd like to give him correct information, but must admit I'm a bit hazey about the very formats I use.
First, I shoot with video cams creating AVCHD files. If I understand correctly AVCHD is a container and the video within is created with an h.264 codec.
I edit in EDIUS as transferred from the cameras. I then output to GV HQ Fine which produces a file in an AVI container. Is that a conversion from h.264 video to a proprietary GV codec? Finally I use that file in Handbrake to create an MP4 container with h.264 video in it. It seems that I start with h.264 encoded video and end with the same after trans-coding to another compression and back again. Somehow that doesn't seem like a smart way to work. Please educate me.
__________________
Fred D
Win 7 Pro-64 bit, EDIUS Workgroup 8.5, Intel Ivy Bridge i5, ASUS P8Z77-V-LK, 8GB Kningston DDR3, Pioneer BDR-209UBK, EVGA NVIDEA GEForce GT630, Corsair TX750M 750w Power Supply, 4 WD Black HDD for 3.15TB, ACEDVIO, Spark HD, eSATA controller, ANTEC 300 case.
Fred Dwyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2019, 11:38 PM   #2
BernH
Senior Member
 
BernH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: St. John's, NL, Canada
Posts: 1,335
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Dwyer View Post
I have a 16 year old grandson who is doing some video editing to support his robot club, Amazing what these kids get to do these days. Anyway, he was asking me about some projects I am doing, about file sizes and times to generate. I'd like to give him correct information, but must admit I'm a bit hazey about the very formats I use.
First, I shoot with video cams creating AVCHD files. If I understand correctly AVCHD is a container and the video within is created with an h.264 codec.
I edit in EDIUS as transferred from the cameras. I then output to GV HQ Fine which produces a file in an AVI container. Is that a conversion from h.264 video to a proprietary GV codec? Finally I use that file in Handbrake to create an MP4 container with h.264 video in it. It seems that I start with h.264 encoded video and end with the same after trans-coding to another compression and back again. Somehow that doesn't seem like a smart way to work. Please educate me.
You are correct for the most part.

AVI, MOV, MP4, MXF and most other files are containers that can use different codecs inside them, such as GV HQ/X, ProRes, MPEG2, MJPEG, DV, HDV (essentially an MPEG2 variant), H.264. X.264, DivX (another h.264 variant), H.265, etc. Some files are not multi-purpose containers, such as a .DIF file, which was used as a raw DV file format, essentially stripping off the container and writing the DV stream in this file. To my knowledge, nothing else used the .DIF file type, but I am open to correction on that point.

AVCHD is not a container. It is a specification. The container for most AVCHD files is MTS. There are various versions of AVCHD, usually proprietary to a camera manufacturer. For example Sony's AVCHD is a little different from Panasonic's, etc. The general encoding is still following the AVCHD specification, but there may be differences in metadata, number of audio tracks, etc.

Containers are usually identifiable by the file extension. It still doesn't tell you what the codec used in the file is for sure, but it can give you a good idea. Containers like AVI, MOV, and MXF are multi-codec, while ones like MTS and MP4, usually hold H.264 or H.265 codecs.

While it is generally better to stay in the original codec, instead of converting to a different one like your AVCHD->GVHQ->MP4 route, sometimes it makes more sense or sometimes we have no choice.

It can make more sense to convert if your system has problems editing the native H.264 type of files. H.264 and H265 are very complex codecs to edit due to the GOP structures used to reduce file sizes, but if you convert those files to the native codec of your NLE (in the case of Edius HQ or HQX), editing is often a lot more responsive, and if you have to do multiple "generations" rendering, often there is less loss and artifacting in the renders.

We have no choice when we need to use a codec other than the native codec to feed something else. For example, and not saying this is the case for sure, but if your source file is a Panasonic AVCHD file and you output a Panadonic AVCHD from your edit software, another software like Handbrake or a video player, may not read the file, but it will if you exported in a different format.

There are basically 3 levels of codecs. Acquisition, Mezzanine, and Delivery.

Acquisition is often moderately compressed to find a balance between file size and quality, such as AVCHD.

Mezzanine files were designed for editing and multi-generation rendering. These include things like Apple ProRes, GV HQ/X, Avid DNxHD/HR, etc.

Delivery codecs, like acquisition codecs, are often designed for a balance between file size and quality, like AVCHD, H264, MPEG2, etc., but not always. Depending on the delivery destination, sometimes they want Mezzanine codecs delivered so that they can do further manipulation without encountering any further compression artifacting.
__________________
Edius WG 9.40.4896, various 3rd party plugins, Win 7 Ultimate SP1, i7-4790K @ 4GHz with HD4600 GPU embedded, MSI Z97 Gaming 7 Motherboard, 32GB Kingston HyperX RAM, nVidia GTX680 4GB GPU, Matrox MX02 Mini MAX, Corsair 750W PSU, Corsair H110i GT Water Cooler, Corsair C70 case, 4TB Internal RAID 0/stripe (2x2TB Seagate SATAIII HDD's, Win7 Software RAID 0/stripe), 1TB Crucial MX500 SSD, Pioneer BDR-207D, Dual 1920x1080 monitors (one on GTX680 and one on Intel HD4600).
BernH is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2019, 11:57 PM   #3
Fred Dwyer
Senior Member
 
Fred Dwyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Connecticut, U.S.A.
Posts: 538
Default

A lot of good information there, thanks, but I'm still not totally clear. I use Canon AVCHD cameras and transfer the files they capture into EDIUS. I then edit those files. Does that not mean I'm editing h.264 codec files? AVCHD does contain h.264 files doesn't it?
Then when I export to GV HD fine is that not a different GV proprietary codec? It ends up in an AVI container which I know can contain different encodings of video.
__________________
Fred D
Win 7 Pro-64 bit, EDIUS Workgroup 8.5, Intel Ivy Bridge i5, ASUS P8Z77-V-LK, 8GB Kningston DDR3, Pioneer BDR-209UBK, EVGA NVIDEA GEForce GT630, Corsair TX750M 750w Power Supply, 4 WD Black HDD for 3.15TB, ACEDVIO, Spark HD, eSATA controller, ANTEC 300 case.
Fred Dwyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2019, 02:26 AM   #4
BernH
Senior Member
 
BernH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: St. John's, NL, Canada
Posts: 1,335
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Dwyer View Post
A lot of good information there, thanks, but I'm still not totally clear. I use Canon AVCHD cameras and transfer the files they capture into EDIUS. I then edit those files. Does that not mean I'm editing h.264 codec files? AVCHD does contain h.264 files doesn't it?
Then when I export to GV HD fine is that not a different GV proprietary codec? It ends up in an AVI container which I know can contain different encodings of video.
Yes AVCHD the uses H.264 codec. The AVCHD specification spells out the codec and container. There is a lot of general information, without getting too technical, regarding the specification here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD

The GV codecs are not H.264. They are a codec developed by Canopus/Grass Valley, and are similar in many ways to ProRes and DNxHD, in that they are a Mezzanine codec, but the GV codecs are a lot more user configurable. They also stand up better to multi generation encoding than the other mezzanine codecs, but the shortfall for the GV codecs is that they are only 422 not 444.

There is a good white paper on the GV codecs here: https://www.grassvalley.com/docs/Whi...Whitepaper.pdf

If you look at the file sizes of the same duration clip, the GV HQ/HQX Fine or Super Fine files will be a lot bigger, because they are less compressed.

For example: Your AVCHD bitrate is 50Mbps, but your GV file is 150Mbps, the GV file will be about 3 times the size for the same duration. The lighter compression results in files that are easier for the computer to decode and edit, at the expense of file size and drive bandwidth requirements. File size is dictated by bitrate X duration. and the bitrate is the bandwidth required to stream the file. Depending on your computer configuration and the complexity of your edit, you can sometimes get much better performance editing the GV files.

I have other posts on the forum regarding the GV codecs and file sizes, bitrates, the benefits of converting to HQX before editing, etc., where I go much deeper into this math if you want to look them up.
__________________
Edius WG 9.40.4896, various 3rd party plugins, Win 7 Ultimate SP1, i7-4790K @ 4GHz with HD4600 GPU embedded, MSI Z97 Gaming 7 Motherboard, 32GB Kingston HyperX RAM, nVidia GTX680 4GB GPU, Matrox MX02 Mini MAX, Corsair 750W PSU, Corsair H110i GT Water Cooler, Corsair C70 case, 4TB Internal RAID 0/stripe (2x2TB Seagate SATAIII HDD's, Win7 Software RAID 0/stripe), 1TB Crucial MX500 SSD, Pioneer BDR-207D, Dual 1920x1080 monitors (one on GTX680 and one on Intel HD4600).
BernH is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2019, 02:34 AM   #5
BernH
Senior Member
 
BernH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: St. John's, NL, Canada
Posts: 1,335
Default

Just sent you a PM
__________________
Edius WG 9.40.4896, various 3rd party plugins, Win 7 Ultimate SP1, i7-4790K @ 4GHz with HD4600 GPU embedded, MSI Z97 Gaming 7 Motherboard, 32GB Kingston HyperX RAM, nVidia GTX680 4GB GPU, Matrox MX02 Mini MAX, Corsair 750W PSU, Corsair H110i GT Water Cooler, Corsair C70 case, 4TB Internal RAID 0/stripe (2x2TB Seagate SATAIII HDD's, Win7 Software RAID 0/stripe), 1TB Crucial MX500 SSD, Pioneer BDR-207D, Dual 1920x1080 monitors (one on GTX680 and one on Intel HD4600).
BernH is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply
 
Go Back   Grass Valley Forums > Editors > Editing with EDIUS
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
codecs banneman Editing with EDIUS 0 07-21-2015 03:23 PM
codecs Bobmax Editing with EDIUS 8 03-05-2014 09:23 PM
codecs? George Glou Editing with EDIUS 10 09-08-2012 06:08 PM
HDTHUNDER codecs unieng Editing with EDIUS 3 01-21-2010 10:14 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:43 AM.


Copyright 2014 Belden Inc. All rights reserved.