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Old 08-20-2011, 12:38 PM   #121
Andreas_Gumm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msvideo View Post
It frustrates the hell out of me that we waste valuable time messing about with long workarounds. Why the hell can Grass Valley and others not put a simple Lanczos scaling filter tick box option into the export dialogue box???

I started this thread in Nov 2008. Its got the second highest number of views. In a few months, this thread will be 3 years old. Grass Valley response? ZERO!
Give EDIUS 6.03 a new try! Grass Valley has improved the downsize quality without official comments on this.
The quality is now much closer to Virtualdub quality!

cheers
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:52 PM   #122
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What "print to file" preset and settings are you using? what stage are you doing the scaling from HD down to SD? Are you using "enable conversion"? i get errors.
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Old 08-20-2011, 01:53 PM   #123
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OK, did a E6.03 export to DVD test and couldn't see any scaling major artefacts, results are acceptable except one problem, no 2 pass VBR.

Method:

1) Change E6.03 project settings to SD PAL 720 x 576 50i 16:9 (or NTSC equivalent)
2) Open any Quick Titler titles on timeline and save so they format correctly for SD project.
3) Print to File - MPEG2 Elementary Stream, only 1 pass CBR or VBR available. Change audio to ac3 as required.

At 4.5mb/s for long movie, the encoding quality isnt ideal for 1 pass. Shame no 2 pass built in or Procoder 3 plugin update for E6...
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Old 08-20-2011, 02:20 PM   #124
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Yes I agree. For short programs when 1 pass is acceptable then Edius 6.03 is good. For the 2 hour or more programs that I do then I will stay with T4. If Edius introduce a 2 pass with some more encode parameters then it would be great.

Ron Evans
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:25 PM   #125
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Just completed loads of testing different methods and permutations.

It does appear that downscaling with Edius 6 has been improved so scaling artefacts are no longer an issue to worry about! I don't know exactly when this happened, was it 6.0? However all my testing with 6.03 has been positive. It is now difficult to distinguish Edius downconversion v's virtualdub resize filter.

A problem was discovered during testing. If you keep the project settings HD and do the downconversion by changing the size inside the MPEG2 Elementary Exporter Plug-in dialogue box, there is a colour shift on the encode. Most noticeable on reds which go lighter/ more orange. (timeline with canopus hq files)

On the subject of colour shifts. Again with Canopus HD HQ files on the timeline when “print to file” to HQX, Lossless and uncompressed - all result in colour shifts (reds get lighter / orange)

As above but using Canopus HQ, reds are OK except:- at titles or transitions and i've just noticed a colour shift also on EX1 XDCAM HD native .mxf files.

The safer method to avoid colour shifts is to change Edius project settings to SD, however any titles on the title track which have not been pre-rendered may need adjusting, particularly outlines and shadows.

Summary of my conclusions:-

1) Short movies, where you can set bit rate at around 7.5mb/s or above - change project settings to SD, check the look of titles or pre-render, use Edius built in 1 pass CBR MPEG2 encode.

2) Long movies, where a lower bit rate around 5mb/s or less is required - change project settings to SD, adjust titles, export to Canopus Lossless SD. Run Procoder 2 or 3 standalone and import lossless SD file, encode using 2 pass VBR.

3) Movies in between above, depends on how much time you have, use one of the above or follow procedure 1) above but use 1 pass VBR instead of CBR

TMPGEnc 5 encode 2 pass VBR quality in all tests whether resizing a HD source or a straight encode of a Lossless SD source, results were poorer than the MPEG2 encoder built into Edius and poorer than Procoder. I tried all the T5 setting options such as slow, soften block noise, 10 bit DC precision. Procoder 2 pass VBR is noticeably much cleaner with much less compression artefacts. Edius 1 pass VBR also had less artefacts than T5 2 pass VBR.

My faithful Virtualdub procedure which has served well over the last few years is broken now. Probably mostly due to changing to Win 7 64. Problems getting long (2hr+) frameserved movies to import into Procoder. Also I installed the latest 64 bit version of virtualdub and I've just noticed on shorter movies when it works, that the black level on encodes are now noticeably lower/blacker.

The Win XP machine I have is also playing up with VD framserves, wont open in P2 or P3. Possibly due to E6 new canopus HQ codec.

For the time being I shall now start using Edius built in scaler as per above conclusions. If only 2 pass VBR could be added to Edius or the Procoder plugin updated, this would save us all time exporting lossless and going standalone.
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Old 08-21-2011, 01:38 AM   #126
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http://ediusforum.grassvalley.com/fo...ad.php?t=22980

in my case T5 produces a slightly sharper result, but as you said, scaling artifacts are much better now in both T5 and EDIUS

Note: I only use CBR at 7700 in my comparison tests
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Old 08-21-2011, 03:20 PM   #127
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I never tried just downconverting in Edius 6.03. I will try when I have the time today on some of my theatre content. I am sure the content is important in how the results look. Downconvert is very much improved in Edius 6.03 and 2 pass VBR encode would complete the picture.

I am looking for sharpness in the image in low data rate encodes so that faces have some substance on the stage. Most of my content is stage sets that don't move much and people also don't move much but facial features are important. That is how I judge the encoding process not the occasional artifact that no one but the techies notice as they are watching the content. Biggest challenge for the encoder is when set goes to stage black or all the lights come up. For me T4 provides the easiest and fastest way of getting these results. In the testing I did I can get close to the same result by sharpening the image from T5, Edius or Vdub and applying colour correction to get black level and chroma but this is another step and when encodes are over 5 hours I don't want to have to do everything again and again !!!

I have mentioned this before but there may well be a difference NTSC and PAL as the scaling has to be different. Pixel counts and temporal rates are different.

Ron Evans
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Old 08-21-2011, 05:35 PM   #128
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Thanks Mark.
I just did another test of a short section, 7 min 12 sec, from a dance show. As you suggested change project settings to SD and exported a HQ fine file took 5 min 20 secs. Used T4 to encode at 3700 VBR 2 pass as I would normally, took 3 min 25 sec. So total time to get SD files was 8 mins 45 sec. Less than half the time it would normally take me. I did one with no sharpening and one with sharpen filter at 15.

I still had the same tests I did of T4, VDub, T5 and Edius so added these to a DVD for my wife and I to watch. To our eyes, Edius downconvert with sharpen filter at 15 and T4 VBR 2 pass MPEG encode was the best of the tests, followed by T4 downconvert and encode, then T5, then Edius downconvert approach with no sharpen.

The Edius downconvert seemed to "clean up" the video. Since all my projects are in the theatre with low light there is often grain seen sometimes on at least one of the cameras and I think the Edius downconvert either smoothed this out or did not downconvert with as much sharpness as T4. T5 seems to smooth out video much like Edius but also needs some sharpening to our eyes. Anyway the end result gives a cleaner image.

Don't do a show again until September so will use this approach then. The time saved will be considerable as my normal approach of exporting HQ file then using T4 takes close to 3 times realtime. This approach will take just over realtime!!!



Ron Evans
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Old 08-24-2011, 10:16 PM   #129
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Interesting test!
Thank you!

Cheers
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PC 1Intel Core i7-970 (6 x 3.20 GHz),
ASUS P6T Deluxe V2, 12 GB RAM, Geforce 9800GT
Windows 7 Ultimate,
GV software: EDIUS 7.42, VisTitle v2.5,
GV hardware: 3G Storm
software SONY DoStudio Indie + EX 4.0.11
PC 2
Intel Core i7-3770, GIGABYTE Z77X-UD5H F14, 16GB RAM,
Geforce 650 GTX, 5x HDD, Windows 7,
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:34 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Evans View Post
Thanks Mark.
I just did another test of a short section, 7 min 12 sec, from a dance show. As you suggested change project settings to SD and exported a HQ fine file took 5 min 20 secs. Used T4 to encode at 3700 VBR 2 pass as I would normally, took 3 min 25 sec. So total time to get SD files was 8 mins 45 sec. Less than half the time it would normally take me. I did one with no sharpening and one with sharpen filter at 15.


Ron Evans
3.7Mbit is to low. This can look ok for nice film source, but not for AVCHD or XDCAM source, especially interlaced.
You have to use at least 5Mbit average and 2pass VBR.

What is your source? 5min for 7min source just downconversion?- sounds to long for your PC spec. Is it Edius 6?
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