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Old 09-16-2018, 12:01 PM   #31
Liverpool TV
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Originally Posted by ulyssesvideo View Post
HI Dave.

thanks...
I use the newblue audio plug in... its very good but not as simple to use.

cheers
Hi Carl.

Give it a try, I'd be very surprised if you didn't like it and if it didn't become a 'go to' audio tool for you within Edius.

Before using LoudMax I'd have to add either my iPad or DAW into the workflow so that I could do certain dynamics stuff for my Edius audio, which meant a bunch of exporting and importing etc.

Now with LoudMax I can stay within Edius for my entire audio workflow, which makes things much easier. I have a number of options for microphones which means that I don't need to touch EQ, so adding some simple dynamics is all I'd really do anyway with dialogue.

I also use LoudMax to control peaks in music tracks in Edius as well so I can balance a bit more between V/O and camera dialogue against background music. The addition of EQ also helps for this, which is easily achieved with Edius' own EQ options, but I generally find that I don't even need to do that.

I'm gonna see if I can dig out a recent mic test where I had accidentally left the mic gain very low and used LoudMax to gain the dialogue to listenable levels. I'll post it here if I can find the original camera file.

Cheers,
Dave.
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:06 PM   #32
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Default LoudMax to the rescue.

Here's an example of LoudMax being used to gain up the output of some dialogue that was recorded very low.

https://youtu.be/XnszaDBWpxc

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If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

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Old 09-17-2018, 02:38 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Liverpool TV View Post
Here's an example of LoudMax being used to gain up the output of some dialogue that was recorded very low.

https://youtu.be/XnszaDBWpxc

thanks for that Dave.

cheers
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:27 PM   #34
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Hi Dave,

I think the VST plug-in is very useful, but in the example you give of raising low level recording, there is another quick way.

Just right click on the audio track that is low, go to the audio properties and you can lift the gain by up to 24dB.
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Old 09-17-2018, 07:34 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by John Hooper View Post
Hi Dave,

I think the VST plug-in is very useful, but in the example you give of raising low level recording, there is another quick way.

Just right click on the audio track that is low, go to the audio properties and you can lift the gain by up to 24dB.
This method will not protect against driving a peak into clipping. The use of loudmax or another loudness maximizer like elephant will protect against it, since you are compressing dynamic range and setting an output ceiling.
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Old 09-17-2018, 07:55 PM   #36
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This method will not protect against driving a peak into clipping. The use of loudmax or another loudness maximizer like elephant will protect against it, since you are compressing dynamic range and setting an output ceiling.
Hi Bern. That's exactly right, thanks for pointing it out.

One of the problems with audio is understanding the difference between gain/attenuation and dynamics processing. Which all effect loudness and dynamic headroom/range in different ways, as you've just explained.

I've always found that the easiest way to understand these effects is to just experiment with the various ways and compare the results. Sometimes you'll find that the way you thought would be best sometimes isn't.

Cheers,
Dave.
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If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

Is your Robot three laws safe?
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:37 PM   #37
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This method will not protect against driving a peak into clipping. The use of loudmax or another loudness maximizer like elephant will protect against it, since you are compressing dynamic range and setting an output ceiling.
I agree with you, but when one clip is recorded accidentally too low, I would not want to compress or limit just that one item as that could change the natural dynamic range in relation to other clips around it. I would prefer to lift that clip by an amount to bring it into line with the level it should have been recorded at. Then process the dynamics if necessary after that.

Techniques might have changed since I retired from broadcast sound, but that is the way I would approach that type of issue.

When working in broadcast sound (PAL) the audio should peak at 8dB above the reference level of -18dB, which gives a headroom of 10dB before clipping.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:21 PM   #38
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I agree with you, but when one clip is recorded accidentally too low, I would not want to compress or limit just that one item as that could change the natural dynamic range in relation to other clips around it. I would prefer to lift that clip by an amount to bring it into line with the level it should have been recorded at. Then process the dynamics if necessary after that.

Techniques might have changed since I retired from broadcast sound, but that is the way I would approach that type of issue.

When working in broadcast sound (PAL) the audio should peak at 8dB above the reference level of -18dB, which gives a headroom of 10dB before clipping.
Hi John.

I'd just use whatever works best for any particular situation. The only problem when something's as low as I had in that recording it usually won't gain up to an appreciable level using just channel gaining. Adding a further a 12db was already shown in the example using the master output. This would be the same as adding 24 to the channel and leaving the master alone.

The only problem, like I said in the example, is that gaining with the master fader can and will cause all kinds of issues for the mix itself. So adding 24 at the channel and more at the master, isn't the best way to mix.

This is when limiting and re-summing at the channel can be a better option. In my particular example, you'd never hear the effect of the headroom being reduced. In fact, if you look at the channel fader you can clearly see a lot of headroom. Any ceiling in there will simply protect and stay constant and not necessarily be heard.

As for transmission standards, PAL in your example. There are many ways to increase the output level while peaking at pre-determined thresholds. This all of course depends on the standards being adhered to. Regardless, dynamics processing can be used to raise average energy levels, perceived volume, without raising peak levels.

The problem with standards and/or guides, there's always a way to get around them. No one ever mixes without dynamics, intentional or not, for TV, or any other medium.

When you consider that most field recording employs dynamics processing, usually limiting of microphones, you could argue that the overall dynamics have already been tampered with, or destroyed.

I personally don't have a problem with dynamics processing as long as it's done to complement or to fix things. Although I can't stand it being used heavy handedly without any thought just to go loud.

Like I was saying earlier. Just use whatever way is most suitable to raise levels, as long as it does the job that's required. My example here was only one way that's very easy and may help people who don't have much experience with such things.

Cheers,
Dave.
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If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

Is your Robot three laws safe?
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:22 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by John Hooper View Post
I agree with you, but when one clip is recorded accidentally too low, I would not want to compress or limit just that one item as that could change the natural dynamic range in relation to other clips around it. I would prefer to lift that clip by an amount to bring it into line with the level it should have been recorded at. Then process the dynamics if necessary after that.

Techniques might have changed since I retired from broadcast sound, but that is the way I would approach that type of issue.

When working in broadcast sound (PAL) the audio should peak at 8dB above the reference level of -18dB, which gives a headroom of 10dB before clipping.
Yes John, If I had one problem clip, I would also raise it's level as you pointed out, but I would also be wary of those peaks, and may put a basic peak limiter on there that would just cut the peaks without changing anything else.

My point was that just turning up the volume can cause other problems if you are not careful. I will often normalize clips to a peak level and hand tweak levels as required, and then put something like loudmax on either a mixdown or nested clip to let that even things out a bit more, being careful not to let the dynamics adjustment cause pumping and breathing.

Just to confirm your broadcast note, here in NTSC land we also aim for -10dB.
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