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Old 04-06-2017, 02:16 PM   #61
Bassman
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This stuff kind of sucks! We are on the outside looking in but with real work related needs.

The problem I see with Intel's GPUs is that they were created to be used as a GPU, not a hardware accelerator. Acceleration was in there but not the focus. Intel has not put a lot of energy into this over the years. It seems odd to me that they have not noticed the market opportunity. Maybe they have with the Skylake-X chip. We will see.

I always wondered why Quicksync had to be tied to medium quality encoding. Why can't Quicksync offer very high quality? Why can't the TMPG plugin make use of Quicksync when x264 is being used? Why? Why? Why?

This situation has been around for years now and no movement. Yet the data requirements are getting larger all of the time.

This thread has talked a lot about editing, but when was the last time anybody encoded a 2-pass x264 AVC-Blu-ray at high quality? A two hour show would put you into an overnight encoding situation. To me, anything overnight in 2017 is just unacceptable. This is only for 720p60...! But rendering at medium quality is also unacceptable for me, but that is my choice.

We can find ways to edit but we can not get around encoding. A two computer approach seems like the best option but what a pain in the ...

At least things are moving a bit with AMD perking up and the Skylake-X having graphics. Maybe this summer will bring an option. If Intel will keep the X299 chipset around for a little while Sklylake-X might be a good option with a possible drop in upgrade when the 10nm chips come out. But they probably will not.
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:23 PM   #62
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I have a Video Assist monitor recorder that records ProRes and may get an Inferno for UHD 60P. Hence ProRes files to edit. The ProRes and HQX do not need as much decoding as Long GOP files and pure CPU is all they need. The onboard Intel GPU in my 4790 ( just h264 ) or the newer 7700 does encode and decode the very things we are talking about. I even thought the high end GPU's from NVIDIA and AMD do as well. Whether the NLE's use them is something else. I believe Vegas does use OpenCL for some of its tasks. Don't have a discrete GPU card in my system so cannot test with Vegas 14.
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:29 PM   #63
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Tim, for all my theatre Bluray's , most of which are around 2 hours, I just use QS from the timeline. About half realtime. For this the data rate is usually around 20-25Mbps depending on length and I cannot honestly see any difference to using x264 for this content. I am sure one would see a difference at really low data rates but I aim to just about fill the disc.

For this reason I of course do prefer a QS enabled PC !!!

The onboard GPU's for Intel and AMD are really to help people watch videos or play games. I do not think NLE editing even was in the spec sheet at all.
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Threadripper 1920 stock clock 3.7, Gigabyte Designare X399 MB, 32G G.Skill 3200CL14, 500G M.2 SATA OS, 500G EVO 850 temp. 1T EVO 850 render, 6T Source, 2 x 1T NVME, MSI 1080Ti 11G , EVGA 850 G2, LG BLuray Burner, BM IP4K, WIN10 Pro

ASUS PB328 monitor, BenQ BL2711U 4K preview monitor, EDIUS 9.5 WG, Vegas 17, Resolve Studio 16


Cameras: GH5S, GH5, FDR-AX100, FDR-AX53, DJI OSMO Pocket, Atomos Ninja V x 2
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Old 04-06-2017, 02:46 PM   #64
AlbertGS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by More4K View Post
Companies don't do it because it brings many problems and it's not a generic solution but bound to a specific hardware. You rather want to avoid this. You may as well develop your own acceleration card, but we already been there- this is expensive, not flexible and quickly gets obsolete. It would be way better to write some complex OpenCL code which would work on all GPUs, but this is very difficult and also limited.
PowerDirector can also decode h265 using Intel and also Nvidia and it costs fraction of Vegas. It's not like MAGIX has done something impossible:) Accelerated decoding also has its limits- about 1x265 UHD high bitrate stream for 50/60p and you can't improve it (it's hardware chip limit). You have to make sure seeking is good, ect. As I said- it will be also limited to 4:2:0 files, so you create solution which has many "buts" and "ifs".
For simple editing of 1 layer it will work, but people expect more.

Edius will get it I think, it's just still fairly early stage of h265.
Poor excuse. If the power is there (Intel Kaby Lake gpu is free) why not use it? Intel dominates the market. Why have Edius added QSV acceleration - (not a generic solution)?

If you can edit 4k AVC/HEVC on a consumer level cpu with no expensive discrete gpu card that is a huge breakthrough compared to users on this and other forums wondering if a 10 core cpu is enough or should they go dual Xeons for 4k and do they need one or two GTX 1080TIs or maybe $5k Quadros?

The NLE market has expanded way beyond the professional studios. An affordable hardware solution opens a much larger market.

I used Power Director but last time I checked it struggles with 4k and generates low res "shadow files" (proxy) for the timeline. I was involved in the user developed solution PDR14/15 enabling PD users to edit 4k by transcoding to MagicYUV codec which worked well. PD does support Quick Sync accelerated render but quality is debatable and even software AVC render is suspect as they use an old Sony PSP codec. Most agree that it doesn't compare to pro software like Edius. I'm hoping for a lot more from MAGIX PRO.

Al
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:06 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Evans View Post
Tim, for all my theatre Bluray's , most of which are around 2 hours, I just use QS from the timeline. About half realtime. For this the data rate is usually around 20-25Mbps depending on length and I cannot honestly see any difference to using x264 for this content. I am sure one would see a difference at really low data rates but I aim to just about fill the disc.

For this reason I of course do prefer a QS enabled PC !!!

The onboard GPU's for Intel and AMD are really to help people watch videos or play games. I do not think NLE editing even was in the spec sheet at all.
I will check this out Ron. The overnight discs really do look great but 20-25mbps is pretty high bitrate for mpeg-4 so I can see how the QS output would still turn out nice. 20-25mbps is my cutoff for using mpeg-2.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:13 PM   #66
AlbertGS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassman View Post
This stuff kind of sucks! We are on the outside looking in but with real work related needs.

The problem I see with Intel's GPUs is that they were created to be used as a GPU, not a hardware accelerator. Acceleration was in there but not the focus. Intel has not put a lot of energy into this over the years. It seems odd to me that they have not noticed the market opportunity. Maybe they have with the Skylake-X chip. We will see.

I always wondered why Quicksync had to be tied to medium quality encoding. Why can't Quicksync offer very high quality? Why can't the TMPG plugin make use of Quicksync when x264 is being used? Why? Why? Why?

This situation has been around for years now and no movement. Yet the data requirements are getting larger all of the time.

This thread has talked a lot about editing, but when was the last time anybody encoded a 2-pass x264 AVC-Blu-ray at high quality? A two hour show would put you into an overnight encoding situation. To me, anything overnight in 2017 is just unacceptable. This is only for 720p60...! But rendering at medium quality is also unacceptable for me, but that is my choice.

We can find ways to edit but we can not get around encoding. A two computer approach seems like the best option but what a pain in the ...

At least things are moving a bit with AMD perking up and the Skylake-X having graphics. Maybe this summer will bring an option. If Intel will keep the X299 chipset around for a little while Sklylake-X might be a good option with a possible drop in upgrade when the 10nm chips come out. But they probably will not.
Agreed - but the challenge here is AVC/HEVC 4k editing with a smooth high quality timeline preview which is difficult even on high end workstations. If we can't edit smoothly there is no need to render. Edius handles a wide range of render options very well including BluRay. 720p is a far cry from 4k.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:15 PM   #67
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I think that the dance videos that sometimes are 2hours 40mins may get to 19Mbps and then I use AC3 at 384kbps to get some more space too. For the theatre I mainly use LPCM to get good sound.
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Threadripper 1920 stock clock 3.7, Gigabyte Designare X399 MB, 32G G.Skill 3200CL14, 500G M.2 SATA OS, 500G EVO 850 temp. 1T EVO 850 render, 6T Source, 2 x 1T NVME, MSI 1080Ti 11G , EVGA 850 G2, LG BLuray Burner, BM IP4K, WIN10 Pro

ASUS PB328 monitor, BenQ BL2711U 4K preview monitor, EDIUS 9.5 WG, Vegas 17, Resolve Studio 16


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Old 04-06-2017, 03:24 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertGS View Post
Agreed - but the challenge here is AVC/HEVC 4k editing with a smooth high quality timeline preview which is difficult even on high end workstations. If we can't edit smoothly there is no need to render. Edius handles a wide range of render options very well including BluRay. 720p is a far cry from 4k.
As I think I mentioned earlier my system will playback the XAVC-S UHD60P files from my FDR-AX1 smoothly in a UHD project. In the same project the ProRes4:2:2 and HQX encodes from this same clip will not playback as smoothly running down the buffer. So the onboard GPU from the 4790 is playing a big part in this editing mode. Reducing the preview to 1/2 and all is well for all three clips.
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Threadripper 1920 stock clock 3.7, Gigabyte Designare X399 MB, 32G G.Skill 3200CL14, 500G M.2 SATA OS, 500G EVO 850 temp. 1T EVO 850 render, 6T Source, 2 x 1T NVME, MSI 1080Ti 11G , EVGA 850 G2, LG BLuray Burner, BM IP4K, WIN10 Pro

ASUS PB328 monitor, BenQ BL2711U 4K preview monitor, EDIUS 9.5 WG, Vegas 17, Resolve Studio 16


Cameras: GH5S, GH5, FDR-AX100, FDR-AX53, DJI OSMO Pocket, Atomos Ninja V x 2
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:40 PM   #69
AlbertGS
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More4K
I stopped using Power Director and don't use Vegas, but I am testing other NLEs including Resolve, Lightworks, and Hitfilm. All are struggling with AVC 4k.
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Old 04-06-2017, 04:57 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertGS View Post
We need to see the MAGIX PRO software in action.
The true magnitude of what they claim is mind boggling.
We are struggling with 4k 8bit h.264 on the timeline.
H.265 doubles the compression (half the file size) but requires up 10X the processing power of h.264!!!
The compression can be 10x. Decompression is not nearly so expensive. The tradeoff is made that way on purpose -- so the rest of us can decode streams w/o buying $7k hardware :) IIRC, VP9 encoding is even worse (or it was when I saw it demo'd). The attitude at google to this kind of stuff was "stop optimizing, we'll buy more machines". I left. I see they're building specialized hardware now (cref: Jeff Dean's TPU release), so I suppose they woke up.

Good decode performance is not really that mind-blowing, either. Pull up one of those hard-to-handle 4k clips, load it into a player like vlc, turn off the hardware decode. On my machine, 4k60p clips take 11% of my CPU, and a sample 4k HEVC clip I downloaded took about 17%. 4k60p clips in Edius take 60%. No Intel h/w required. I don't think my 970 is even capable of HEVC decode -- that was added in the 960 and later cards. It is not a surprise to me that optimization is possible, particularly if the decode system is completely rewritten. VLC is open source, and I've been tempted to use it and an HQX encoder just to see what theoretical overhead should be, but fortunately my time is full and I haven't gotten myself into that kind of trouble :) [And it would be trouble -- my hands-on experience with video encoding is zero.]

Aside from the type of code involved, though, this is my day job. It hurts my soul when I see this kind of stuff.

Quote:
MAGIX are claiming realtime H.265 NEVC at 10 bit color - and claim they did it with a single Intel API. If any users have a Kaby Lake system
The QSV is supposed to support 10bit hevc in Kaby. I can't find a performance comparison between it and Haswell, though :(
What I've read is that the nvenc/dec hardware in the 1080 series was supposed to have closed the gap, but Kaby opened it up again. I assume Kaby is substantially better, but I don't have any data.

Quote:
personally, my feelings are AMD have been behind for so long I would give Ryzen at least a year to prove itself.
I think if I had bought any of the bulldozer procs, I'd feel similarly. Fortunately (?), I was burned by Intel, not AMD :)

Quote:
You will see the comprehensive Adobe benchmark I posted above on Ryzen vs Intel and, quite frankly, the Ryzen results were disappointing.
Yeah -- those benchmarks say more about Adobe than they do Ryzen. Actually, they say more about the state of software programming than anything else. This is the second rant I've removed -- don't get me started :| Did I mention that this stuff hurts my soul? :)

Quote:
Now that they have some competition, maybe prices will come down.
If the only thing my purchase of an AMD processor does is to help make Intel do what I've wanted them to do for several years now, I'm more than happy to have don it.

Quote:
I've been postponing an upgrade since Haswell so I'm going with an i7-7700k running at 5ghz - because I'm Intel biased, can't wait for 2018, am hoping software makes better use of Intel hardware decoding on the timeline, and I don't think there is any cpu solution on the horizon that solves the 4k problem - by my bet is also a gamble and might also be wrong :)
I think that's the sane choice given the alternatives. I upgraded from pre-Sandy hardware, so, I had more alternatives :) Ryzen was a huge upgrade for me. But Edius is more likely to use HEVC hardware in Intel processors than it is to re-optimize their AVC pipeline (the former is roughly as complex as adding a new element in the decoder list -- which could itself be more complex than it seems -- while the latter is many months of work, support call nightmares when stuff breaks, etc). In fact, I almost expect GV to ship a card with a couple of low-end Kaby chips capable of running just the Intel QSV hardware before they tackle rewriting the AVC decode loop ;/

That's probably my software engineer pessimism showing through.

Quote:
1) Improve software to take max advantage of hardware decoding available now from Intel as MAGIX appears to have done.
Yeah, I should download Vegas and give it a go. Could be interesting.

Quote:
x264 is best followed by Main-Concept. I'm not sure what GV uses but other NLEs can vary substantially in AVC quality.
I use TmpGenC, fwiw.
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