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Old 02-03-2012, 08:00 AM   #31
rapcon
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Hi Dave thanks for your informative answer. My history with video goes back to Jan 2000 when I started to dabble into video editing with my Canopus Raptor & MediaStudio Pro 6.0 (later Premiere 5.0). I always liked the film look and have tried to attain the holy grail to give me that ultimate look. I started with straigh de-interlacing but that resulted in loss of image quality and a few years later used software "DVFilm Maker" at first with SD DV & then in 2008 HDV. Of course this requires time with computer rendering but was very effective especially when I treated my HDV footage. I always wanted to shoot in true progressive to achieve that film look & one day I hoped to shoot a camera with 24p at least.
These days I'm more involved on the photography side of things & acutely aware that many of the newer DSLRs have video capabilty. My D200 does not & I was going to upgrade to a D7000 but not happy with the video (for casual use that is!). I'm more inclined to pick up a Sony NEX-5N for it's smaller form factor; read "wife friendly" but with superb image quality (has the same sensor as a Nikon D7000) & pretty good video quality. A bit disappointed about blu-ray specs not recognising 25p & I don't want the NTSC version just for the option of shooting at 24p. From what little research I made these past couple of days that if I import my 1080/25p into a 1080/50i project it will ultimately play back progressively on screen from instruction from the blu-ray player

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progres...egmented_frame

Also hopefully it will convert down to Standard Definition without any issues...

Regards Phil C.
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:34 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antonsvideo View Post
can you show the OP how to get 25p in 25p project to export to Blu-ray via disk burner

on my system, the disk burner can't be selected until I change project to 50i
It's Edius limitation.
Also - if you switch 25p project to 50i you don't lose anything, so with Edius disk burner that's the way to do it.

There is tiny issue- if you have some fades etc they will be applied in interlaced manner. To avoid this export your final timeline in 25p project to HQ/HQX file, than load it to 50i projcet and burn to BD.
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:27 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Kover3D View Post
It's Edius limitation.
Also - if you switch 25p project to 50i you don't lose anything, so with Edius disk burner that's the way to do it.

There is tiny issue- if you have some fades etc they will be applied in interlaced manner. To avoid this export your final timeline in 25p project to HQ/HQX file, than load it to 50i projcet and burn to BD.
do you mean as in my post 2
http://forum.grassvalley.com/forum/s...81&postcount=2
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:37 PM   #34
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If you use some effects like fades etc, yes- you may be better using this way.
This is not essential thought.
For cut editing you don't need intermediate file.
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Old 02-03-2012, 03:33 PM   #35
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Hi Anton and Andrew.

You both seem to have got me on this one, with the tiny issue of effects such as dissolves having an issue/difference when being applied to progressive material in a progressive project that has been changed on the the fly to an interlaced project.

I have to say that I am pretty good at noticing things and have never seen this, but If I am doing something wrong or giving bad advice out, then I really should address it. I monitor progressive and interlaced at the same time, one CRT one plasma and of course the computer monitor.

My assumption would have been that if this difference you talk about is really there. Then my logic would lead me to believe that applying at source, as in the project/timeline, or rendering to a progressive master, then doing it to the render in an interlaced project, would be the same. There by both giving the same results to both outcomes.

Again, even if the dissolve is being applied at a temporal level in an interlaced project. This in my mind should not make any difference to a progressive source, as it too at this point has the same temporal characteristics as the switched protect settings. As in for PAL. The temporal change is there but not visually noticed between the fiftieth of a second between each field, as the source frame had no movement due to its progressive nature.

Anton. You pointed out to Andrew that what he is saying is what you had already said earlier.
"You will have to export timeline to Canopus HQ fine and then start a new 50i project, then add the file and export to Blu-ray"
Although later you implied that statement to have been an incorrect one based on the fact that a 25P project can be live switched, and nothing to do with effects being temporally applied to progressive sources.
"yes, sorry, some projects can be changed to interlaced" I am a little confused on this now.

Any chance either of you could do a downloadable project to show this tiny issue in action on dissolves or other effects it may happen to, thanks.


Hi Phil.

The holly grail of the film look from video, is something I try for as well. The main difference as you know, is the progressive format. But beyond that things like film speed and shutter speed/angle, film type, light etc. all play their part. Film reacts to light differently than a video sensor, and the chemical processing all have factors.

I find that altering the gamma of the video helps quite a bit, and altering contrast and colour in post. Most nearly all that would make the differences is usually a post job. Some video cameras are better than others at producing the film look straight out of the box. If you ever find a cheap one, let me know :)

There are a lot of people on this forum who prefer the interlaced look and the smoother motion of higher frame rates. But I'm with you on the 24 frame film look, it may be lacking in certain things, but I grew up with it and love it. Any documentary type of stuff that I shoot, will get shot progressive as well.

Here is a link to an example of some stuff. The project is 25P 1080, I have saved this with E3D so hope the EZP is compatible with E6. If not or you have an earlier version of Edius, you can just access the videos as they are HQ files. The clips a more compressed than I would master at, to shrink them for the web.

Sequence 1 has two alternating clips of the same thing. Clip 1 is pre-processed and clip 2 is post-processing. Sequence 2 has just one clip with it's final grade.

Everything is done inside Edius. You should catch up with the Edius grading that one of the Matt's from here on the forum does, they are the best examples I have seen out of Edius. You can also use other tools like Magic Bullet, I think, and some of the Boris stuff.

I am not saying that my examples look just like film. But the processing does give them something other than a video look. Plus I go quite heavy handed for pop promos, usually the nature of the beast. As you can tell, I love high contrast and pushing the gamma, not very subtly either :)

BTW, there is a ton of effects in these videos, tried live switching from progressive to interlaced and did not see any difference on the effects. Maybe they are just more subtle than myself.

http://www.mediafire.com/?729oxq82f24x01c



Cheers.

Dave.
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Old 02-03-2012, 03:53 PM   #36
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Load 25p file into 50i project and apply dissolve and export to HQ.
Load HQ to Vdub and watch how dissolve looks like.
Do the same in 25p project.
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Old 02-03-2012, 04:26 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Kover3D View Post
Load 25p file into 50i project and apply dissolve and export to HQ.
Load HQ to Vdub and watch how dissolve looks like.
Do the same in 25p project.
Hi Andrew.

Like I said before, can you do a project for download that shows what you are talking about. I do it all the time, it's way easier for others to see what you are on about. You are talking about using Vdub etc. that I don't know how to use. Besides I am monitoring properly with a broadcast CRT and a massive plasma. I would have thought that if this effect was noticable you would see it in Edius connected to the above monitors. Like I say, creating a downloadable Edius example would be real cool.

You may also have missed the point to what I was saying, let me make it a little clearer. Whether or not this effect is there or not, I am saying it would be no different anyway because of the target destination. You have to go interlaced anyway to get 25FPS to Blu-ray. Now whether the dissolves are being applied pre or post the interlaced stage, it would only happen anyway at the transcode stage to satisify the need of the format for Blu-ray. So even if this effect was visible, which I doubt very much, it would be an inevitible conciquence of going to Blu-ray anyway.

It really would be much easier to show your point with a video example.

Maybe Anton could help with a test, as he seems to agree with you. Just because I can't see it does not mean it does not exist. But If it does, then I would like to see it. It's always good to find any errors you are doing, change them, and become more educated in the process.

Cheers.

Dave.

Last edited by Red Union Films; 02-03-2012 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 02-03-2012, 04:50 PM   #38
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You need to preview it as progressive, that's why I use Vdub and PC monitor.

It has nothing to do with BD- it's how Edius applies dissolve in interlaced project- by field.
You end up with progressive footage with interlaced dissolves and your player/TV will most likely switch into progressive mode and this is good. The only issue will be dissolves, which will show fields as TV won't deinterlace them (to short for TV to switch to interlaced mode). As I said- this is not major issue, but by exporting HQ file and than importing it into 50i project you can avoid it. I don't know how many other filters may show similar effect- don't really use them, but I think I seen it also in some other cases.

Interlaced (25p in 50i):




Progressive (25p in 25p)


Last edited by 4Kover3D; 02-03-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:04 PM   #39
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Hi Andrew.

With all due respect you are missing the point, and now talking about something different than you said before. You where talking about when to apply filters on progressive material that ends up interlaced, now you are talking about viewing results in progressive.

Besides, you are showing stills with zoom, not even video. You know yourself how things can be manipulated with stills, or for certain things to get in the way. Why would you even want to show a less than perfect test in progressive mode, when the whole point was how things play in the interlaced world?

I think I have made my point a little clearer than yours, and don't feel the need to continue with trying to get you to understand something that you either can't see, don't understand, or wont understand.

This thread should get back to Blu-ray. If you or anyone else feel the need to continue this side topic. Then by all means start a new post, maybe in the lounge.

Other points in this thread read very well and will help others with some of the finer points of Blu-ray. It would be a shame if we see it locked on the grounds of it going off topic.

If you choose to continue in the lounge, please use proper empirical examples, as in video and more to the point Edius. If you do this, I will join in and give you a hand.

Cheers.

dave.
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:58 PM   #40
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If you are in interlaced project dissolve is applied in filed mode. This file once watched as progressive (like in case of fake 25p BDs) will show fields (because player/TV send whole frame as is)- exactly as on this picture. It was zoomed, so fields are easier to see. Simple as this.

Try yourself- you can watch video (it will be the same as this still if you pause), juts make sure you send progressive signal to TV (not even psf). Don't forget HDMI/players/TVs don't work in psf format- just pure frames-p.
Psf is just Sony trick and used in broadcast only.

There is nothing wrong what Edius does as we're in interlaced project- it's just a tiny issue in our case, but not some bug or Edius fault.

Conclusion is simple- dissolves made on progressive source in progressive and interlaced projects are different- once are applied in progressive manner other in filed mode.
This is related to the topic and you're not the one, who decided if it's out of topic or not.

Last edited by 4Kover3D; 02-03-2012 at 07:07 PM.
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