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Old 09-03-2007, 09:59 AM   #1
Angelo
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Default Edius 4.51c does RT "Inverse Pulldown" Editing!

Today I was experimenting with Canon's HV20 HDV 24P recording. The 24P recording is stored in 60i with 3:2 pulldown stream.

I captured the footage in the native M2T file format. I used 2 programs to create 2 version of true 23.976P HQ footage, which are Procoder3 and TMPGEnc 4.0 Xpress.

I started-up a new OHCI HD 23.976P Edius project and stacked both footages. I noticed an issues with both conversions, first with PC3 the first 14 frames of the footage was missing the ending was fine; second with Xpress the image was a bit brighter, not a biggy. With the original M2T 60i footage loaded on the timeline and enabling and disabling tracks frame by frame there was zero difference between the M2T and Inverse Pulldown HQ files on the 23.976P timeline. View mode was set to Frame.

To verify that I was seeing it correctly I started up an OHCI HD 60i project and loaded up the same files and sure enough the M2T footage shown 2 frames with interlacing and 3 frames progressive. Looking at the 23.976P footage on the 60i timeline there is some RT frame blending going on.

So from what I can tell Edius 4.51c is going RT Inverse Pulldown on 60i footage with pulldown when placed on a 23.976P timeline.

Also, every time I try to use PC3 there nothing but bugs! When will a patch be issued?

...Angelo
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Canopus/GV: DVStorm2 w/component-out board, ADVC300, Edius 4.61, ProCoder 3.05, Imaginate2
System: MSI B75A-G43 (v2.0), i7-3770K, 4GB, HD6850, Pyro1394 pci-e, 6 Disks 2.4TB non-raid, Win7-32bit, Dell 24" & 19" LCD
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Old 09-03-2007, 01:17 PM   #2
Ken45
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Okay,

I"m confused, are you using tmp to reincode canopus hq 29.97 footage

at 23.98 ?

Why not 24.00?

thanks
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Old 09-03-2007, 06:47 PM   #3
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Here are the steps I took from capturing 59.94i Pulldown to exporting 23.976P HQ from 4XPess:

1. Captured in M2T file format
2. Import into TMPGEnc 4XPress
3. Click "Filters" button
4. Make sure "Deinterlace" is checked and selected
5. Change Deinterlace Mode to "24fps special animation"
6. Change Deinterlace Method to "Inverse Pulldown"
7. Click "OK"
8. Click "Format" button
9. Chose "AVI File output" (double click it)
10. Chose the video codec "Canopus HQ (CUVC)"
11. Use video size 1440x1080
12. Use video framerate to '23.976 progressive'
13. Use PCM uncompressed audio 48000hz 16bit 2ch(stereo)
14. Go to Encode and encode

I never use 24.00P with NTSC footage so I don't know the "issues" that will be rised when converting 59.94i to 24.00P, since it's a know fact to use 23.976P. NTSC is not perfect 60 field/s (or 30 frame/s) it's 59.94i, 29.97p or 23.976p (with pulldown removal).

...Angelo
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System: MSI B75A-G43 (v2.0), i7-3770K, 4GB, HD6850, Pyro1394 pci-e, 6 Disks 2.4TB non-raid, Win7-32bit, Dell 24" & 19" LCD
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:40 AM   #4
Ken45
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Here are the steps I took from capturing 59.94i Pulldown to exporting 23.976P HQ from 4XPess:

thanks

1. Captured in M2T file format



you mean you captured in edius ?


frame size : 1440 x 1080 Frame rate : 29.97) Pixel aspect : 1.3333// Field order : Progressive NOT A CANON, NOT
A SONY SETTING? in HQ codec? or uncompressed? or?




2. Import into TMPGEnc 4XPress
3. Click "Filters" button
4. Make sure "Deinterlace" is checked and selected
5. Change Deinterlace Mode to "24fps special animation"


OKAY I FOLLOW YOU. I dont have footage here to load now.

is there a 23.98 button? would that make a difference?



6. Change Deinterlace Method to "Inverse Pulldown"
7. Click "OK"
8. Click "Format" button
9. Chose "AVI File output" (double click it)
10. Chose the video codec "Canopus HQ (CUVC)"


so you are going HQ TO from HQ, right?



11. Use video size 1440x1080
12. Use video framerate to '23.976 progressive'
13. Use PCM uncompressed audio 48000hz 16bit 2ch(stereo)


de check interlace, right?



14. Go to Encode and encode

I never use 24.00P with NTSC footage so I don't know the "issues" that will be rised when converting 59.94i to 24.00P, since it's a know fact to use 23.976P. NTSC is not perfect 60 field/s (or 30 frame/s) it's 59.94i, 29.97p or 23.976p (with pulldown removal).


I would like to examine the frames of both choices . 24 vs 23.98 One rare post I read said canon hv20 does NOT produce true 24 f output. He examined the frames one by one apparently to find out. He felt canon
misrepresented this camera

there are certain comprimed frames. anyone know?




thanks




FINALLY, you are saying 45.1c does all the work perfectly without tmpgenc needed?
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Old 09-05-2007, 01:56 AM   #5
Angelo
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I got the 4XPress settings formation from the HDV20 Forum - TMPGEnc 4.0XPress & Pulldown.

I thought the steps where straight forward, but to answer your questions...

I captured to M2T file format with default settings which are 60i 1440x1080. Used Edius or MPEGcapture

The 23.98 button or the Frame rate is in the export area.

Yes, I used Canopus HQ codec for export. Like I said earlier I captured the footage in M2T file format

de-check??? Just make sure it's selected so you can set the De-Interlacing method correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken45
I would like to examine the frames of both choices . 24 vs 23.98 One rare post I read said canon hv20 does NOT produce true 24 f output. He examined the frames one by one apparently to find out. He felt canon misrepresented this camera
A rare post? This person doesn't know what he's talking about. The HV20 in 24P recording mode, recodes 24P in a 60i container. The 60i file has 3:2 pulldown. So to edit the 23.98P correctly the pulldowns needs to be removed. But in my findings with Edius Pro 4.51c... read below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken45
FINALLY, you are saying 45.1c does all the work perfectly without tmpgenc needed?
Yes, that is what I found with my experimenting with Edius Pro 4.51c and a OHCI HD 23.98P timeline. I was doing a frame by frame comparison with the M2T 60i (23.98P w/pulldown) file to the removed pulldown 23.98P HQ files on a OHCI HD 23.98P timeline and frames to frame comparison they are the same. I would like others to test this out too.

...Angelo
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Canopus/GV: DVStorm2 w/component-out board, ADVC300, Edius 4.61, ProCoder 3.05, Imaginate2
System: MSI B75A-G43 (v2.0), i7-3770K, 4GB, HD6850, Pyro1394 pci-e, 6 Disks 2.4TB non-raid, Win7-32bit, Dell 24" & 19" LCD

Last edited by Angelo; 09-05-2007 at 03:25 AM.
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Old 09-06-2007, 11:59 AM   #6
Ken45
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thanks

for explanation,

i dont have time to test this all now,

but hope to in future.

I gather those pull down pre sets currently in edius dont work for the
hv 20 correct?


I did render some to 24 and some to 23.98, I didnt see much difference,
but maybe edius chokes on the 24?


finally, would you export your entire project to 23.98 straight to HD DVD

or blue ray for example?
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Old 09-06-2007, 05:44 PM   #7
Angelo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken45
I gather those pull down pre sets currently in edius dont work for the hv 20 correct?
My findings with Edius Pro 4.51c and a 23.8P timeline does work correctly with 24P M2T captured files. I haven't tried capturing 24P footage into HQ format.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken45
I did render some to 24 and some to 23.98, I didnt see much difference, but maybe edius chokes on the 24?
Converting original 59.94i pulldown footage to 23.98P works perfectly where as 24.00P audio drifting will be a issue or added "dummy" frame will be needed. The best way to use a 24.00P timeline is by having true 24.00P (not 23.98P or NTSC 24P) footage like 24.00P film footage transfered to digital or cams that shoot 24.00P.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken45
finally, would you export your entire project to 23.98 straight to HD DVD or blue ray for example?
All my final media is still on DVD. I have been experimenting with Ulead's MovieFactory 6 Plus and red-laser HD DVDs since I have a HD DVD player, on DL DVD+R I can store 40min on a disc. With my current customer base, DVD is all they want. Has for 23.98P recording, I was only testing it, I'll be staying with 30p or 60i that gives much more fluid motion, more so with 60i.

IMO, shooting 24P requires "special" way of directing a shoot with correct lighting (for proper iris and shutter speeds) and cam lens to get that DOF look.

...Angelo
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Canopus/GV: DVStorm2 w/component-out board, ADVC300, Edius 4.61, ProCoder 3.05, Imaginate2
System: MSI B75A-G43 (v2.0), i7-3770K, 4GB, HD6850, Pyro1394 pci-e, 6 Disks 2.4TB non-raid, Win7-32bit, Dell 24" & 19" LCD

Last edited by Angelo; 09-06-2007 at 08:29 PM.
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