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-   -   PC3 and "Jaggies" (http://forum.grassvalley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416)

Jerry 05-20-2007 05:08 PM

PC3 and "Jaggies"
 
Has anyone else tried a direct export to SD mpeg 2 for authoring from an HD timeline on Edius. With PC2 we all got the 'jaggies' from doing this.
I have tried this both ways.

1. Direct out to MPEG 2 with AC3 audio in widescreen (mastering quality)from an HD 1920x1080 timeline.

2. Rendered out to HD lossless file. I then imported into SD timeline
and made my MPEG 2 with AC3 files in widescreen (mastering quality) for authoring.

I personally could not tell the difference between the two files when played
on a widescreen LCD or Plasma TV.
I'm interested if any one else has had the same result with PC3.

As far as I can tell, this issue has been corrected and my workflow just got easier.

shueardm 05-20-2007 05:14 PM

Perhaps that's why it takes twice as long- they fixed it.

tarkken 05-20-2007 05:46 PM

Thanks much for your post. I've re-read this and I apologize for the length. You may be in a huge position to help me...

I've been using ProCoder2 for years now and I've been running into trouble downconverting HD footage (DVCProHD & HDV) to SD Mpegs for SD DVD's (and I was hesitant about PC3 based on some initial reports - speed, etc).

Can you please be more specific about what footage/formats you're using on your timelines?

I've been tearing my hair out recently trying to successfully downconvert DVCPRO HD P2 footage to SD - specifically DVCPRO 1080 60i (native is 1280x1080i) (but would love advice on the 720p/1080p (native is 960x720 for 720p settings) workflow as well).

I just bought the new HPX2000 (the bigger P2 2/3" cam - around $30K w/o lens). The footage in HD looks absolutely incredible. However, I can't for the life of me get it to downconvert to SD without edge tearing, warbling, moire, and serious stair stepping and jags on edges. I think it's an HD upper field vs DV lower field issue. Anybody successfully downconverting footage from the smaller HVX200 would help me as well - it's the same formats - just different overall resolution based on the lens front-end chipset.

Again - if I put this footage in an HD timeline - it's incredible. If I change the project settings to SD (D1/DV 4x3/16x9), I get all of that stutter, tearing, etc. I've been experimenting with exporting from HD timeline (DVCPRO 1080 60i) - it gets close, but there's still jags. If I export the same native HD source from an SD timeline, it still rips/jags/tears/warbles, etc. I'm in no-man's land for SD.

I thought it was a DVCPRO issue - however, I just recently saw a similar effect created with a sony Z1 (1440x1080). I do think that the Canon H1/Z1 (1440x1080 HDV GOP) minimize the effect compared to DVCPROHD (1280x1080 every frame) It's gotta be a SD/HD timeline/format/field thing.

Long story short - are you saying PC3 corrects/smooths all of this and yields smooth/beautiful SD DVD's?

I'd like to shoot DVCPRO 1080 60i (1280x1080i) and maybe add some HDV B-Roll (1440-1080i) - edit natively (probably 1280x1080 timeline), and then create a 1920x1080i master (for legacy storage and export to Blu-ray). Then I absolutely need to create an mpeg 2 for SD authoring from that master for SD DVD (either 16x9 or 4x3 letter boxed), as all my clients have DVD - but not HD (yet).

Are you saying that PC3 is up to the task now - eliminating jags, and looking good or hopefully great on SD downconversion (on MPEG2's for DVD authoring and/or SD DV AVI files for SD editing/downconversion of footage for other editors)? Are you exporting from a full 1920x1080 60i timeline to get these results? I'm assuming you could do the same from 720 60p, 720 24/30p or 1080 24/30p timelines as well?

You'll save my life if the answer is yes!! I've been trying everything the last few weeks. I'd have PC3 shipped overnight if it fixes it. Would love confirmation and/or any advice/settings/stories/templates you may have.

BTW - I've even hooked up some AJA mini boxes to my Edius SP system - one to convert HD YUV to HDSDI - and one to go HDSDI to SD composite/component. It provides an HD to SD realtime output on my system now (1 frame latency). I thought it was going to be a lifeboat for me until actual transcoding solutions became available. Does give a latency free HD SDI output to the system though. BTW - that downconverted SD image does not show the jags/tears, etc - looks great...

Keeping my fingers crossed.... Thanks very much.

Khoi Pham 05-20-2007 08:28 PM

Hi Jerry, are you absolutely sure that it has been fix? please double check and let us know, because that would be the only reason I would upgrade to PC3, grid encoder is no good to me cuz it can only do CBR. I wish Grass Valley would put up a bug fix in PC3 so we don't have to rely on each other for information like this, I'm willing to pay for the bug fix, just let me know if it is fix or not, because I waste alot of time fixing titles and stuff like that before I could output to MPEG2 from an HD timeline.

Jerry 05-20-2007 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khoi Pham (Post 2123)
Hi Jerry, are you absolutely sure that it has been fix? please double check and let us know, because that would be the only reason I would upgrade to PC3, grid encoder is no good to me cuz it can only do CBR. I wish Grass Valley would put up a bug fix in PC3 so we don't have to rely on each other for information like this, I'm willing to pay for the bug fix, just let me know if it is fix or not, because I waste alot of time fixing titles and stuff like that before I could output to MPEG2 from an HD timeline.


Thats why I put the post up to get confirmation from other users.
As far as my eyes can tell, there is no difference in the output on LCD or Plasma. With PC2, I could see a noticeable difference.
As I said before, If someone else can do a test to see if it works for them,
we will have 2 of us saying so.

Jerry 05-20-2007 10:15 PM

[QUOTE=tarkken;2112]Thanks much for your post. I've re-read this and I apologize for the length. You may be in a huge position to help me...

I've been using ProCoder2 for years now and I've been running into trouble downconverting HD footage (DVCProHD & HDV) to SD Mpegs for SD DVD's (and I was hesitant about PC3 based on some initial reports - speed, etc).

Can you please be more specific about what footage/formats you're using on your timelines?

I've been tearing my hair out recently trying to successfully downconvert DVCPRO HD P2 footage to SD - specifically DVCPRO 1080 60i (native is 1280x1080i) (but would love advice on the 720p/1080p (native is 960x720 for 720p settings) workflow as well).


Ok,
Let me see if I can help you. Having not used the Pany I am not familiar with all of it's pros and cons.

1st scenario:
I started with footage shot from an FX1...1440x1080
This is edited in a 1920x1080 timeline
I exported this directly from the timeline with PC3 to
SD MPEG 2 720x480 16x9 mastering quality and ac3 audio.
It played back fine.

Second scenario:
I started with the footage from the FX1..1440x1080 and exported
from the timeline to a lossless AVI file. This file is then a 1920x1080 output.
I then imported this file into an SD D1 time line of 720x480 16x9 .
I then exported through PC3 to an SD MPEG 2 720x480 16x9 mastering quality and ac3 audio file.


I then put both of these onto the same menu and played them back repeatedly. I do not see any differences in the two files.

I hope that gives you a little better idea.
If you have a place that you can upload a little of the P2 footage, I will gladly
try it with PC3. I'll then put on my website and you can download it.

tarkken 05-20-2007 11:29 PM

Thanks a mil Jerry - I feel far more optimistic right now.

Do you have anywhere I could stick a test clip? I ftp'ed a short clip for Grass Valley, but it looks like it's not on their site anymore. I'm not sure if they have it or not - I haven't heard back since the question/request.

It's about a 20 second clip - around 220MB. Would love to get confirmation if it's not an imposition... I could try to parse that down a touch - it's DVCPROHD 108060i - P2 format (you'll need Edius broadcast). If I cut it down in Edius, it wouldn't be a native capture clip, but should still be a decent test case.


I found that putting Z1 clips in an SD timeline provided fairly good results - including export from that timeline for SD DVD's, with the occasional warble/moire, etc. The DVCPRO stuff does not react as well. I'm hoping PC3 is a just-in-time savior for all of this HD to SD downconversion...

Jerry 05-22-2007 12:40 AM

Do you have anywhere I could stick a test clip? I ftp'ed a short clip for Grass Valley, but it looks like it's not on their site anymore. I'm not sure if they have it or not - I haven't heard back since the question/request.






I PM'd you. Check your Messages.

RandyD 05-30-2007 09:26 PM

Is there an answer as to whether PC3 has fixed the jaggies issue exporting from Edius a HDV timeline to SD MPEG2? I am ready to upgrade if the answer is yes.

Landon 05-31-2007 04:40 PM

I donn't have any problem jaggies with PC3 but take longtime to encoding.


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