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-   -   captioning - open and closed (http://forum.grassvalley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43712)

trillium 08-21-2019 08:59 PM

captioning - open and closed
 
I may to create captioning for an upcoming project. Is there a tutorial somewhere that explains how to do this in Edius? I've read in the manual how to combine a caption clip and a video clip but I did not see how the caption clip is created in Edius. Do I need additional software to do this or can Edius do it alone other than creating the text in a text editor?

I'll keep searching the forum but so far I have not found what I need to know through searches. I know it has been discussed here.

Thanks for any help.

Jerry 08-21-2019 09:38 PM

Currently, you have to use external caption software to create an official caption file.
Do a Google search for caption software.

BernH 08-21-2019 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trillium (Post 323546)
I may to create captioning for an upcoming project. Is there a tutorial somewhere that explains how to do this in Edius? I've read in the manual how to combine a caption clip and a video clip but I did not see how the caption clip is created in Edius. Do I need additional software to do this or can Edius do it alone other than creating the text in a text editor?

I'll keep searching the forum but so far I have not found what I need to know through searches. I know it has been discussed here.

Thanks for any help.

Edius can't create the closed caption clip. This has to be done in another software such as Mac Caption, Caption Maker, or even Subtitle Edit.

Once you have the text timed to a video guide in these softwares, you can export an .scc file that you can then match up in Edius.

I have played around with this using both Mac Caption and Subtitle Edit, and was successful in my tests. I don't normally have to do this so I can't say I have a lot of experience, but it is a functional workflow.

Open captions are essentially text overlays (basically the same as doing subtitles) that can be created in the same softwares and exported as a video file with an alpha channel that is just put on top of the video in edius, or created in something like Vistitle.

Andreas has posted a good little tutorial using Subtitle Edit for subtitling that may give you a good kick start in all of this.
https://forum.grassvalley.com/forum/...light=subtitle

trillium 08-21-2019 11:09 PM

Thanks, I thought in E9 they had added native captioning support. Guess I get to learn something new. I'll probably be doing open captions in the upcoming project.

Jerry 08-22-2019 12:10 AM

Edius 9 does have native captioning support for import and playback only.

GrassValley_SL 08-22-2019 12:56 AM

and export. :)

trillium 08-22-2019 07:37 PM

None of the video on the Subtitle Edit seem to load. Gonna take some time to learn this. Doesn't seem to recognize any of my Edius mp4 exports, I'll try downloading the filters. I better move this to another forum discussing 3rd party stuff.

Thanks for the tips.

trillium 08-27-2019 09:51 PM

Been trying to import a forum suggested format from Subtitle Edit into Edius the FC xml + image version. Edius says the file frame rate is wrong though I have 59.94 set in both my Edius project and Subtitle. Edius receives the file as 60fps and won't load it.

I'll try another export setting and try again. But wondering why the mixup between Edius and Subtitle. I'll move this discussion over to3rd party stuff after this post.

BernH 08-28-2019 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trillium (Post 323650)
Been trying to import a forum suggested format from Subtitle Edit into Edius the FC xml + image version. Edius says the file frame rate is wrong though I have 59.94 set in both my Edius project and Subtitle. Edius receives the file as 60fps and won't load it.

I'll try another export setting and try again. But wondering why the mixup between Edius and Subtitle. I'll move this discussion over to3rd party stuff after this post.

The whole 29.97/59.94 thing needs a little clarification, as there are really interlaced and progressive variations of each, and interlaced and progressive are completely different animals that need to be treated differently.

Basically, 23.98p, and 29.97i/59.94i are NTSC specific framerates, and it appears that older versions of Subtitle edit are not putting the NTSC tag in the xml, which is not entirely surprising, since it is written by someone in Denmark where NTSC does not exist, and this was the issue with post number 6 in the thread I pointed you to above. Andreas said he would report the issue to the author, and the tag seems to be there in some places in the version he just released a few days ago, but not in all the rate/timebase sections of the xml. The NTSC tags needs to be inserted into all the rate/timebase sections for Edius to read it correctly.

If you are referring to 59.94p as the framerate, then there may be a different issue, as 59.94i is really 29.97, it just depends on if you are counting fields or frames, and why I have them listed above as 29.97i/59.94i instead of two separate entities, but 59.94p is frames since it is progressive and therefore double the framerate of 29.97i/59.94i.

Basically, you may need to choose 29.97 in subtitle edit if you are editing 59.94i in edius, and 59.94 in subtitle edit, if you are 59.94p in edius. You should also be aware of the "SMPTE timing (drop frame)" option in the video menu of subtitle edit, as our broadcast timecode in North America uses drop frame timecode.

If you find reading xml files to see what is actually happening a bit overwhelming, Microsoft has a great little xml editor called xml notepad that makes it a lot easier to make sense of the xml and edit it.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/down...s.aspx?id=7973

If you can't figure it out and want to provide a little more detail on your actual framerate, whether 59.94i or 59.94p, I can have a look when I get home from work tomorrow unless someone else beats me to it.

***Addendum***
Just had a thought. It may be possible to pass the xml, or an fcpx xml through davinci resolve to "clean it" and format it properly.

trillium 08-28-2019 05:43 PM

Thanks for taking time to discuss this. There is no real need for me to shoot the project in 60p so I'll try the 29.97 frame rate and see what happens in Subtitle. Sorry I did not catch the fine points in previous post. I've been looking for some good tutorials online but I haven't found the level of detail I need to figure out Subtitle's settings successfully. I'm actually hoping our disabilities service unit will subtitle the video but I still want to learn the process for myself. I don't really understand the various export formats or how they work in Edius though I've read the Edius manual- it doesn't mention the Final Cut xml format anywhere I can find. I need ti make open captions for this project and of course could do this in CG at the expense of a great deal of time and effort.

I'm trying to manually transcribe the content using the SE onboard tools wav/text interface, kind of tedious but interesting..

trillium 08-28-2019 07:33 PM

3 Attachment(s)
I tried importing a SE xml file as a project but it is assigning a framerate of 60 even though I spec 29.97* from Edius (though subtitle doesn't show * version). When this imported as 60 I replaced 60 in the xml with 29.97 and then it imported as 29 in Edius and failed again. Guess I'm missing something. Attaching the xml for review.

I'm attaching clip and project properties (images) if anyone wishes to review.

thanks

BernH 08-28-2019 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trillium (Post 323665)
I tried importing a SE xml file as a project but it is assigning a framerate of 60 even though I spec 29.97* from Edius (though subtitle doesn't show * version). When this imported as 60 I replaced 60 in the xml with 29.97 and then it imported as 29 in Edius and failed again. Guess I'm missing something. Attaching the xml for review.

I'm attaching clip and project properties (images) if anyone wishes to review.

thanks

Hey Jim, I'll have a look tonight when I get home to see if I can get a workflow figured out for you.

In the mean time, in Subtitle Edits settings, go to the toolbar tab and enable the framerate display. This will place a framerate dropdown on your toolbar of the project so you can change and/or confirm that the framerate is correct.

Also, if you want to send along your subtitle edit project, that may help to figure out an easy way, if one exists to get it working for you. I shouldn't need a video file, just the srt of the project.

BernH 08-29-2019 01:46 AM

Hey Jim,

I haven't found an easy way of fixing the xml file yet. The only thing that has seemed to work is manually adding the ntsc tag to every rate/timebase section.

I have done this on a small file ad it worked, but I wouldn't want to have to do it for something more than a hand full of subtitles.

I may not find an answer before you have to deliver, but I will keep digging.

BernH 08-30-2019 04:38 AM

Jim,

If you haven't got things done yet, I have a potential work around for your subtitles.

If you want to send me your SRT file, I can pass it through Mac Caption at the office and send you back a full length black/alpha channel quicktime movie that can alpha key over your video.

The scc file from subtitle edit should work fine for your closed captions. (at least it did for me.)

trillium 09-03-2019 06:58 PM

Thanks BernH for your offer. I'm going to try to work with the developer to see if we can figure out my issues. Been away for a few days, hence, my delayed reply. The tools in SE are sufficient for my need if I can get it to work. My typing skills are a bit of a drag on the process.

trillium 09-09-2019 07:43 PM

I'm wondering if the problem I'm having importing .xml project into Edius is an Edius problem or a SubTitle edit problem. Manually editing the .xml file to replace 60fps with 59.94 results in Edius saying the project is 59 - so I just don't get it. Edius always rounds the xml frame rate to the nearest whole number. I'm no expert with XLM files. Exaples of the file can be found earlier in the thread.

BernH 09-09-2019 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trillium (Post 323891)
I'm wondering if the problem I'm having importing .xml project into Edius is an Edius problem or a SubTitle edit problem. Manually editing the .xml file to replace 60fps with 59.94 results in Edius saying the project is 59 - so I just don't get it. Edius always rounds the xml frame rate to the nearest whole number. I'm no expert with XLM files. Exaples of the file can be found earlier in the thread.

From my experience with the xml files coming out of subtitle edit, it is the missing ntsc tags that are the issue. These tags cause Edius to interperet the 60fps as 59.94, because they force a 0.1% adjustment in the framerate interperetation.

If you make a file with just a couple of subs in it, and inset the ntsc tag into each framerate section in the file, it imports properly. This is easy to do for a couple of subs, but not so easy when dealing with content for a full show.

Subtitle edit seems to insert this tag in the master framertate sections, but not in the framerate sections pertaining to each subtitle. Since they are missing in each subtitle's section, Edius errors saying the framerate is 60 or 30 depending on the rate you are using, instead of the ntsc equivalent of 59.94 or 29.97.

Whose fault it is, depends on if you think Edius should only look at the master framerate section or not, and what the official xml schema should be.

trillium 09-09-2019 09:42 PM

Thanks, I'll test this. The SE author didn't seemed very interested in identifying the problem. It's funny Edius either rounds up or down to the next whole. number. I'll revisit the xml file. I previously did a search and replace for "60" and replaced with 59.94 but got the same result of wrong frame rate.

BernH 09-09-2019 10:26 PM

If you look at the first framerate section, it has the ntsc tag. All the other framerate sections need to look the same for Edius to read it right, but when you look at them, many don't have the ntsc tag.

Inserting this tag has worked for me in the tests I have done with a few subs.

When I get back to my system later, I'll try to post some examples of what I mean.

BernH 09-10-2019 12:10 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Ok, I am attaching a zip file of 2 xml's and generated PNG files.("video.xml" and "video edited.xml") and some screen shots to illustrate.

The original xml (video.xml) and subtitle png files that it references were exported from Subtitle Edit using the File>Export>Final Cut Pro + Image option.

The edited xml (video edited.xml) has simply had the ntsc tags inserted before each and every timebase tag that didn't have the ntsc tag. If you miss one, it will not work. There are no changes, other than the insertion of these ntsc tags.

The Edius project settings are also attached. Note, if your Edius setting is 59.94 interlaced, as mine was, the framerate is really 29.97, not 59.94. If you are 59.94 progressive, then the framerate is 59.94. The attached xml files reference a timebase of 30 with the ntsc tags partially correct in the original file and fully corrected in the edited file, which enforce the 0.1% adjustment to get to 29.97.

The edited xml imports fine into edius, but the unedited one makes Edius grumble about the framerate. When imported, you get a timeline with the png files on it that you can then nest on a top video layer of the main timeline to get the subtitles working.

If you go to https://www.diffchecker.com (or a diff checker of your choosing) and copy and paste the text from the original xml file into the original side and the text from the edited file into the changed side, it will show you exactly what I have inserted to get it working.

Feel free to pass this on the the Subtitle Edit author if it will help him figure out what to fix.

Exporting an .scc file from subtitle edit works fine for me to do closed captions. It is only the open captions/subtitles that this effects. Of course, you can still manually place the png files. The xml just places them in time and duration based on what you did in Subtitle Edit.

trillium 09-11-2019 04:42 PM

Well I tried manually editing the xml and the framerate that was delivered was interpreted by Edius as 58.94 and would not load. The project is progressive so 59.94 would be correct. I checked the xml file and nowhere is the 58.94 framerate found. Somewhat strange.

In the meantime I'm going to use an in-house captioning service for this project.

BernH 09-11-2019 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trillium (Post 323945)
Well I tried manually editing the xml and the framerate that was delivered was interpreted by Edius as 58.94 and would not load. The project is progressive so 59.94 would be correct. I checked the xml file and nowhere is the 58.94 framerate found. Somewhat strange.

In the meantime I'm going to use an in-house captioning service for this project.

I haven't tried a 59.94 project, but theoretically, if you are 59.94 progressive, all the timebase sections in the file should have a timebase of 60, with the ntsc tags added.

I will confirm this when I get back to my system.

trillium 09-11-2019 09:00 PM

I replaced 59.94 and it did load sot of-tried to restore clips.

BernH 09-12-2019 12:02 AM

In the Subtitle edit export dialogue, there is a checkbox for "Use full image path url in FCP xml"

Enabling that should let Edius find the files properly.

trillium 09-17-2019 07:11 PM

I downloaded the new beta for Subtitle Edit and was able to successfully import a 59.94i /29.97 framerate project into Edius. I did have to point Edius to the caption images and re-link them one at a time. Is there a way to batch re-link the images (that option was greyed out) in the re-link dialogue in Edius. Otherwise the new SE beta was successful in creating an NTSC Edius compatible file in this case for open captions.

So progress at last!

trillium 09-26-2019 06:23 PM

Thank BernH for walking me through the needed fixes and hints to make SE work within Edius. The developer of Subtitle Edit was helpful and pointed me to the new beta which fixed the problems with the Final Cut xml plus images export that works with the project import in Edius.

Now have captioning capability but want to learn in more detail the Edius tools to support captioning.


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