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Why is Edius still not working properly with Intel 11th Gen and 12th Gen CPUs?

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  • Why is Edius still not working properly with Intel 11th Gen and 12th Gen CPUs?

    Even after a number of updates to Edius 10 since the release of Intel 11th Gen CPUs, none of the updates fixed the compatibility issue with regard the DG-1 based UHD 750 iGPU and QuickSync. Further more, during that time GV were not only fully aware of this continuing compatibility issue but they were also fully aware of the future release of Intel's 12th Gen CPUs with their new DG-2 based iGPU architecture for UHD 770.

    Given that one of the key improvements to Edius 10.3 was supposed compatibility improvements with Intel's Gen 11 and Gen 12 CPU's and bearing in mind that Edius 10 users on Intel 11th Gen CPUs have been waiting for about a year for this fix, the real question here, is. Why is Edius 10 still not fully compatible with Intel 11th Gen and now Intel 12th Gen CPUs?

    Further more. Given that GV made the switch a long time ago to QuickSync for hardware assisted decoding & encoding of H.264. Then further down the line GV started using QuickSync for H.265 decoding and encoding, with a minimum of particular Gen 9 Intel CPUs being an absolute requirement for H.265 exporting. During this time it became abundantly clear that GV had stopped developing its own filters/codecs for H.264 tasks and never had anything effective of their own anyway for H.265 and instead relied on QuickSync for these core tasks for Edius. This switch to leaning so heavily on Intel technology for certain core Edius functions meant that GV had to make sure that Edius was always in step with updates and improvements to Intel's CPU and iGPU technologies.

    Given what I've just said and the fact that GV committed so heavily to relying on 3rd party technology for the effective use of Edius. This very long wait for 10.3, only to find that it still doesn't work as GV has advertised, is absolutely inexcusable. Remember, back in the early days when Edius was a Canopus product and then into the early years of GV ownership of Edius. Edius had its own bespoke filters/codecs for almost nearly all of the codecs it was likely to use at the time. In fact, it was Canopus technology that was behind the Panasonic DVC codecs and if I'm not mistaken, Canopus' own DV codec was better than the MS one and if I'm not mistaken again, that fabulous MPEG codec was also home grown. The reason why I mention these points is because this solid and tight integration of Canopus' own developments and technology was a key factor in why Edius had such advantages over every other NLE at the time.

    Another reason why Edius was so good and not just because it was initially only 8 bit, was because it was always designed from the ground up to be an NLE that fully utilised the host PC's CPU. This, at the time, was a massive advantage to Edius because it meant that Edius would always increase performance with the increase of CPU power. However, GPU utilisation was only ever for UI and screen drawing tasks mostly. While Edius over the years has tried to leverage and hand off certain processing tasks to the GPU, it was never designed to do that. This is clearly evident in the fact that Edius still, and maybe never will, utilise the GPU for anything like what most NLE users would want from a GPU. Most notably, the full power of the GPU for most, if not all, codec decoding and the big one, the GPU being used as part of the core video processing. Was it Edius 9 or 10 that introduced this so called "modular" approach? In any event, there's only so far you can go with bridging and circumnavigating any software's core programming and architecture in order for it to be "somewhat" compatible with future technologies.

    There's a very good reason and a certain amount of inevitability as to why certain software and operating systems will be re-written periodically.

    Edius, just as nearly all Windows applications have been, was written to take advantage of Intel CPUs. This is simply a fact of designing software for X86 on Windows. Whilst the use of AMD CPUs can and does work very well with Windows applications that were primarily designed around Intel architecture. In the instance of applications such as Edius, it's more akin to brute force and not finesse when it comes to handing off tasks designed for Intel technology, QuickSync as a clear example.

    Don't forget. Since the release of 10.3 there would appear to be more problems introduced for those Edius users with Intel 11th and 12th Gen based CPU PCs that goes beyond the issues we've had with just the iGPU underutilisation for QuickSync over the past year or so.

    In this latest version of 10.3 we now have a software H.265 encoder. Is this a compromise due to the H.265 hardware encoding issues with the latest Intel CPUs? Or is it a smart move by GV to help Edius users on earlier, none hardware H.265 encoding compatible Intel CPUs, and to help AMD users? Or is this a move back to traditional built in codecs for Edius and is this actually a GV codec? In any event, why are we only seeing this now?

    With everything mentioned here and the obvious state of play with Edius and its position in the modern NLE world. I personally believe that GV have massively let down the independent Edius users, such as the vast majority of those on the Edius forum. Many independent users of Edius will be using it as the core for their video post production setups and for those who don't use Edius in a professional manor to make money, they still have the same financial investment in Edius.

    Lastly. If we were in this scenario about 18 months back when I was completely tied to Edius as my only NLE, I would be absolutely livid right now and the tone of this post would have been very different. The reason why I'm not so put out by the present situation is becuause earlier this year I foresaw the potential of this scenario arising and made very drastic moves, indeed moves that I never thought I'd ever make, in order to mitigate the fallout of the situation that we are now in.

    To be clear on that last point. During this past year I started using another NLE, and indeed, made small financial steps into augmenting my hardware platform and operating system with another platform and OS, as a test to see if I was able to move away from the NLE that's served me so well for about 15 years. The conclusion from my initial tests were that not only was I able to make what I thought may have only have been a sideways move to a situation that would have been better for staying ahead of the post production curve in the future. With a post setup that was going to be something that I felt safe with in the knowledge that updates and bug fixes were going to be dealt with in a timely manor. But I have now made, for me, a serious financial outlay to completely migrate away from Edius, to something that is serving my purposes, needs and post production workflow in a way that is currently impossible with Edius.

    While GV wont lose any sleep over just one Edius FanBoy moving to another NLE. I sincerely hope they take note of why this has happened. As right now, it may only be independent Edius users, who only count for a small proportion of Edius sales, that may be forced into a similar move as myself. However, and while the broadcast market always relies on older, tried and tested, mission critical infrastructures for smooth running and up time. Once broadcasters eventually move on to new a new post infrastructure, they too will expect their NLE to move with them.

    Cheers,
    Dave.

    "There's only one thing more powerful than knowledge. The free sharing of it"


    If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

    Is your Robot three laws safe?

  • #2
    the readme of 10.30 suggest to change the Windows power options when using 11th Gen or 12th Gen in order to work with EDIUS

    I don't have an 11th or 12th Gen in order to test this myself
    Last edited by antonsvideo; 12-22-2021, 12:49 AM.
    Anton Strauss
    Antons Video Productions - Sydney

    EDIUS X WG with BM Mini Monitor 4k and BM Mini Recorder, Gigabyte X299 UD4 Pro, Intel Core i9 9960X 16 Core, 32 Threads @ 4.3Ghz, Corsair Water Cooling, Gigabyte RTX-2070 Super 3X 8GB Video Card, Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD for System, 8TB Samsung Raid0 SSD for Video, 2 Pioneer BDR-209 Blu-ray/DVD burners, Hotswap Bay for 3.5" Sata and 2.5" SSD, Phanteks Enthoo Pro XL Tower, Corsair 32GB DDR4 Ram, Win10 Pro 21H2

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by antonsvideo View Post
      the readme of 10.30 suggest to change the Windows power options when using 11th Gen or 12th Gen in order to work with EDIUS

      I don't have an 11th or 12th Gen in order to test this myself
      Alright Anton.

      I've tried a whole number of things to do with the Windows environment, even a fresh install without any modifications. The only thing I've not done is try out Windows 11. But nothing I've done so far has made any difference between 10.3 and the last 10.2 with regard QS performance, it's still the same.

      I'd already mentioned in another post the lack of advice for any specific driver between 10.3 and the iGPUs. This is something I find odd seeing as most past QS issues were related to specific drivers.

      From what I've read there's also other new issues with 10.3 and 11 and 12 gen, something that GV have supposedly acknowledged, according to someone in another post.

      To be honest, I've accepted that Edius is no longer suitable for my particular needs and have now moved on to a Mac based solution. I've gone way past the point of the anxiety of tailoring a modern Windows X86 machine for Edius. I've just got myself another Blackmagic 4K Thunderbolt interface for my Mac setup, which luckily works on my main Windows PC with Edius. So I can at least still use Edius for screen capturing my Macs and iPads.

      Cheers,
      Dave.

      "There's only one thing more powerful than knowledge. The free sharing of it"


      If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

      Is your Robot three laws safe?

      Comment


      • #4
        I"m following a YT channel of someone who tests editing software with the pc's he sells, Edius is one of those NLE's. In below video he tests the 11700K with edius 10.2 and gets very good results with either en- and decoding with good support from either the graphics card as the uhd750. It's in German and a longer video as he also goes into Edius functionality and hardware details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7UZxf9DQt4
        He actually recommends this CPU as a very good costfriendly alternative for those on a budget so obviously it could work with the right drivers?
        Last edited by noafilm; 12-22-2021, 09:08 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          very interesting!

          Comment


          • #6
            I have been using an 11th gen for ages and I do not get crashes on my desktop. However, I have had this in a laptop system - which was cured by the note GV have put up. GV have also said there is an issue so it is a problem but may be related to the type of footage. David Harry did make another thread and attached a sample project with a clip which does not perform well.

            I have been very happy with my 11th gen system as it has performed really well for lots of stuff. If buying a new system I would want a 12th gen processor though - a lot more cores for nearly the same price.
            EDIUS silver certified trainer.
            Main edit laptop: DVC Kaby Lake desktop processor laptop, 32GB RAM, 3.5Ghz i5 desktop processor, nVidia 1060, Windows 10.
            Desktop: 4Ghz 9900K processor, 32GB RAM, nVidia 1660TI GPU, Windows 10.
            Desktop: 2Ghz 12 core Xeon processor, 32GB RAM, nVidia 1060, BM Intensity Pro, Windows 10

            Comment


            • #7
              I use various h.264/5 based files and the simple fact, which I’ve proven a number of times, is that Edius simply doesn’t perform properly with them on Gen 11.

              Even H.264 standards such as XAVC S performed better on earlier CPUs.

              Edius also doesn’t conform properly with NVENC, again something I’ve proven.

              There are also oddities with QS, again something I’ve proven.

              We are now in a situation between 11th and 12th Gen where GV are advising to switch of hardware acceleration for H.264/5 decoding, not using your Nvidia GPU etc. These are GV’s idea of workarounds.

              If other Edius users think that this all OK, then fair enough. However, I doubt there’ll be many people who know the current state of play who will be running out and buying a 12900K and RTX 3090 based system for Edius, or even an RTX 3060.

              While all this has been going on I’ve used a £1000 MacBook Air M1 laptop with another NLE, that’s free, which has no issues what so ever with anything that I throw at it that’s H.264/5. This setup has been more powerful with regard video processing compared to anything that I’ve used on Windows and Edius, including variations of 10th and 11th Gen Intel with various RTX GPUs that has cost a fair bit more. And export times are way faster with like for like projects on this Mac setup, even when Edius was using NVENC.

              I’ve also now got a much more powerful Mac with the M1 Max SoC with the paid version of the free software used on the Air M1 and compared to a £3000 Windows/Edius desktop, it absolutely obliterates anything that a similarly priced Windows/Edius setup can do. If anyone can show me a scenario where Edius can edit multiple streams of 8K 60FPS H.265 footage then I’ll eat my words but I’m 100% positive that I won’t be dining on my own words anytime soon.

              If after reading GV’s recent release notes, Edius users still don’t see the bigger issue and core problems, again, fair enough. But when GV themselves are listing the seriousness of these problems, there is absolutely no way anyone can try and spin this situation to be something that it isn’t.


              "There's only one thing more powerful than knowledge. The free sharing of it"


              If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

              Is your Robot three laws safe?

              Comment


              • #8
                That GV acknowledges there is a problem is a good thing I guess as they can't ignore it anymore, not every user with a 11th gen CPU seems to be affected as I have pointed out in that video with the 11700K, he also tested the 11900K with no issues either but it looks like laptop users are less lucky. So your issues may come down to particular hardware/driver incompatibilities and as we know Edius is quite sensitive to that. That was eventually also the main reason for me not to go for a CPU with quicksync just looking at the history of issues users often had getting it to work properly. Today I can only say it was the right choice for me, just like with your Mac I also have no issues whatsoever. But you are right that if GV advertises the quick sync abilities they should make sure it works for every cpu that has that option or at least post which hardware/driver combinations are guaranteed to work.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by noafilm View Post
                  That GV acknowledges there is a problem is a good thing I guess as they can't ignore it anymore, not every user with a 11th gen CPU seems to be affected as I have pointed out in that video with the 11700K, he also tested the 11900K with no issues either but it looks like laptop users are less lucky. So your issues may come down to particular hardware/driver incompatibilities and as we know Edius is quite sensitive to that. That was eventually also the main reason for me not to go for a CPU with quicksync just looking at the history of issues users often had getting it to work properly. Today I can only say it was the right choice for me, just like with your Mac I also have no issues whatsoever. But you are right that if GV advertises the quick sync abilities they should make sure it works for every cpu that has that option or at least post which hardware/driver combinations are guaranteed to work.
                  It’s taken GV about a year to acknowledge these problems. I doubt their acknowledgment was a benevolent gesture, there was no way they could hide from this issue anymore because it has now gotten way worse with crashes.

                  Don’t forget, the previous problems with Gen 11 didn’t involve crashing or anything to do with Nvidia GPUs. The previous problem was underperforming with QS etc.

                  It looks like you’ve misunderstood the situation, all Gen 11 and Gen 12 systems are effected. It’s not a build, driver, software or version of CPU issue, it’s a fundamental issue with DG-1 and DG-2. Which has now gotten worse, especially for Gen 12, which suggests new problems beyond the original ones, problems that would appear to be related with the CPU in the case of Gen 12 and not just its DG-2 based iGPU architecture.

                  If this was a simple driver issue, then why haven’t GV once mentioned what driver to use? In the past there were recommendations for GPU drivers for previous Intel CPUs but not now with 11th and 12th Gen.

                  I checked out that video but only had time to skim through it. From what I seen, there was only one video and the examples and chart I’d seen were all 8 bit media. I’m not saying that these were cherry picked examples but it definitely was no where near the level of testing I do in my videos. You’ll find that up until this last update, most nearly any Gen 11 would do what’s going on in that test, in fact, I think you’d get away with the same test on something as early as an i7 Haswell but even something as old as Gen 7 would definitely do that test and more.

                  To be clear. My 11th gen system was capable of a track of 4K/25 using XAVC S but even that was less than my older Gen 9 could do. I’d say that up until yesterdays issues, all Gen 11s could do this but as soon as you fed it variations of 4K 10 bit or 50/60 frame rates or H.265 footage, it would immediately fall over. This is something that David Clarke acknowledged with my test footage, on a system that would otherwise appear to be working correctly.

                  Again, to be clear. I can guarantee you that the system in that video will also be suffering issues.

                  If anyone out there is thinking similar to Noa, that my issues are maybe because of configuration problems. Then I’d suggest you go and properly read the GV release notes. GV are very clear in what they are now admitting to as being known issues with Edius on 11th and 12th Gen Intel CPU based systems.

                  Seriously. All Edius users need to read that release note properly and fully understand the gravity of its contents.


                  "There's only one thing more powerful than knowledge. The free sharing of it"


                  If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

                  Is your Robot three laws safe?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Liverpool TV View Post


                    It looks like you’ve misunderstood the situation, all Gen 11 and Gen 12 systems are effected.
                    I didn't misunderstand, all I was saying was that the guy in that video says his test setup with a 11th gen processor performs as expected and he also proofs it in his video, if you understand German like me it's ofcourse easier to understand when he explains how he tests, he is using a mixture of 4K 8 and 10bit, 25p and 50p h.264 and h265 footage from different camera's. So apparantly in some cases it does work.

                    Seriously. All Edius users need to read that release note properly and fully understand the gravity of its contents.
                    Not "all", only those with 11/12 gen intel cpu's or those planning on buying such a processor mainly for Edius should think twice, I"m not one of them, as I have said before my 5950x performs well beyond my expectations with edius 10.3.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by noafilm View Post
                      I didn't misunderstand, all I was saying was that the guy in that video says his test setup with a 11th gen processor performs as expected and he also proofs it in his video, if you understand German like me it's ofcourse easier to understand when he explains how he tests, he is using a mixture of 4K 8 and 10bit, 25p and 50p h.264 and h265 footage from different camera's. So apparantly in some cases it does work.
                      You obviously did misunderstand. Regardless of what you seen in that video, GV have made it very clear there’s a problem. There really is no argument about what GV have said.

                      Originally posted by noafilm View Post
                      Not "all", only those with 11/12 gen intel cpu's or those planning on buying such a processor mainly for Edius should think twice, I"m not one of them, as I have said before my 5950x performs well beyond my expectations with edius 10.3.
                      Actually, what I said there was aimed more at people like you. You’ve obviously just looked at these issues and thought “I’m alright Jack”, quite obviously by your response about using an AMD processor. This shows you’ve obviously not understood the gravity of the situation and looked beyond what it means for you right now. So let me be a little clearer.

                      The biggest Edius user base on this forum are people using QS enabled Intel CPUs. That’s a fact that’s supported by signatures and the majority of questions asked on the forum. I dare say that the same will apply for the wider world of Edius users, although broadcast may lean more heavily toward server based Intel CPUs.

                      None the less. Given that GV rely so heavily on Intel and QS for many of Edius’ core functions, which means that maintaining that link between Edius and Intel’s technology will be of paramount importance. If GV can drop the ball so badly with Edius and this Intel problem, which is something that they obviously will have tried to avoid at all cost, do you really think that an AMD issue would even register as a major concern for GV?

                      Here are some indisputable facts.

                      Right now, Edius is in a clear mess and GV are in a position they definitely don’t want to be in.

                      Without even needing to name the competition, Edius’ market share is way lower than most of other popular professional NLEs that we all know. I’d hate to guess what the margins are but I’m guessing that Edius’ market penetration is very low by comparison to the top 3.

                      Even for us long term Edius users we’ve always know how niche Edius is. I’ve worked in many post and TV facilities and everyone that I’ve ever come across has known who Grass Valley are but not many had ever even heard of Edius and that’s including editors.

                      I have two other NLEs that I’ve been testing and both get regular updates. Sure, some of those updates are bug fixes but at least they are being dealt with. However, in the case of one particular NLE I’ve already experienced serious additions to its tool set over the last few months and these were by way of what an Edius user may understand to be a minor update in terms of how updates on Edius are handled.

                      Now some points that are based on common sense.

                      It’s very unlikely that Edius has the financial resources as far as development and support is concerned, compared to the top 3, maybe even the top 5 NLEs. This clearly means less man hours for development, fixing etc. and as we are fully aware, a less than ideal schedule for updates which is getting less and becoming later. Take 10.3 as an example.

                      We have now just seen a massive issue with an update that has all but rendered certain systems useless depending on the source material used and that issue was then further compounded with more issues. Seriously, how does such a massive problem get past the developers, programmers and testers? I’m going to suggest that Edius simply doesn’t have the backing for support, both financially and as far as personnel are concerned, that is required for a major NLE of its stature. And this is why we are seeing less updates, late updates and updates that have clearly not been tested properly before release.

                      I’ve been working in post for over 30 years and have seen a number of NLEs come and go, some just like Edius that were very good and clearly better than the popular choices of their day. There is a certain pattern that becomes clear when something isn’t working, maybe being changed to a less important product in a companies inventory or maybe even been managed into a decline. What’s been going on in the last couple of years with Edius, as far as my opinion is concerned, is something that looks very similar to what I’ve seen in the past when a good program has run its course.

                      Being blunt. For me, Edius looks like it’s circling the drain.

                      So. If you think that being on AMD means that you don’t have to worry about anything that’s effecting the Intel users right now, I sincerely hope that you are right and that you and all the other Edius AMD users are safe. However, and as I’ve already said, that last GV release statement should be taken very seriously by every Edius user.

                      Anway. I’ve now made my points very clear and if anyone still wants to question or argue with them, then you’ll be doing that on your own. I’ve no need to argue any points about anything that isn’t clear to others and I’m most certainly not in a position to burden myself with the current situation and waste time worrying about my workflow, as I would have done in the past because this current situation would have totally flawed my workflow. Not that I’m happy or gloating about it but at least now that Edius isn’t my main NLE, I don’t have to put up with the pain of these setbacks.

                      My advice to all Edius users, because we all suffer this problem, don’t get too buried in your own Edius microcosm, lift your head up every now and then and take note of what’s going on around you, regardless of what PC setup you are using.





                      "There's only one thing more powerful than knowledge. The free sharing of it"


                      If you don't know the difference between Azimuth and Asimov, then either your tapes sound bad and your Robot is very dangerous. Kill all humans...... Or your tape deck won't harm a human, and your Robot's tracking and stereo imagining is spot on.

                      Is your Robot three laws safe?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Did you notice you are the only one who is spending so much time complaining on the forum? I don't mind living in my little microcosm and I'm also glad I didn't follow your recent advise on how great "Intel" processors where as only reasonable choice for edius, if I did I would also be spending the same amount of time complaining here instead of finishing another effortless edit for a paying client which I actually just did and plan to do for the coming years on the same pc. For anyone looking to buy a new pc now, don't let David scare you into not going for a AMD processor, it works great and that comes from someone who actually has one. For anyone wanting to buy a 12th gen cpu, just give GV time to get things right, they have acknowledged the problem which means they are looking into it and I"m sure they will fix it eventually.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by noafilm View Post
                          I"m following a YT channel of someone who tests editing software with the pc's he sells, Edius is one of those NLE's. In below video he tests the 11700K with edius 10.2 and gets very good results with either en- and decoding with good support from either the graphics card as the uhd750. It's in German and a longer video as he also goes into Edius functionality and hardware details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7UZxf9DQt4
                          He actually recommends this CPU as a very good costfriendly alternative for those on a budget so obviously it could work with the right drivers?
                          You can let him use uhd750, 4K H264 and h265 for 250% accelerated playback, and you will see that the buffer is very difficult. If uhd630 is used, it can be accelerated to 640%. Using uhd750 770, premiere can accelerate to 1200%, uhd750 edius is only 250%, uhd770 crashes
                          CPU:AMD R9 5950X GPU:GTX1050 MEM: Micron 4G DDR4 2400x4
                          motherboard:ASrock X570 matx
                          SSD:intel p3600 sata HDD: HGST 8Tx5 raid0
                          Power:Great Wall EPS2000BL 2000W
                          OS WIN10 20H2

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