16:9 SD Display

[Fred Dwyer]

This question must have been answered before, but searching on "aspect" has lead me through more posts than I can handle, and none seem to give me an answer.

I have an EDIUS v4.61 project using 720 x 480 DV footage with a pixel aspect ratio of 1.2 to 1.0 (16x9). This was downconverted from HDV footage. I exported it to PCX to create elementary streams from which to build a DVD. In PCX I specified the Aspect Ratio Code to be 16 x 9.

I converted the output .wav file to an .ac3 file and loaded the .ac3 and the .m2v files into DVD-lab v1.3. The .m2v images display as 16 x 9 in DVD-lab. In DVD-lab under Project properties I have tried specifying the 16:9 display mode once as "Automatic - player Decide" and once as "LetterBox.

The resulting DVDs (burned with VERITAS RecordNow DX) perform as follows:
When created under "Automatic - Player decide": On both wide screen and on a 4 x 3 screen I get a pan & scan 4 x 3 image.
When created under "Letterbox": On both wide and 4 x 3 screens I get the whole image letterboxed (on wide screen I have black bands on the left and right as well as the top and bottom.

Am I missing something? Should I be able to get a letterboxed image on 4 x 3 screens and a full image on wide screens?

At this point I would suspect it's a DVD-lab problem, but I suppose it could be a flag problem in PCX or in EDIUS?

[tuyle]

When you play the .m2v file it should be 16:9, not 4:3 ?
I think the setup for PCX (it's the same as PC3) is correct. Maybe Anton can help you on DVDLab or you can check out his website with tutorial about DVDLab.

[Fred Dwyer]

Yes, when I play the m2v file it is a 16:9 image.

[Ron Evans]

How was the downconvert done? This may be an issue of the downconvert being HDV to letter box DV rather than wide screen DV. Then what you have described would happen( as far as DVDLab output on TV's). Make sure that the clip properties are 16x9 with correct aspect ratio in Edius and the project is 16x9. I edit HDV and AVCHD all the time in Edius usually use TMPGenc to encode for DVDLAb 2.0 set DVDLab for forced Letterbox which will do what you want. Play 16x9 on wide screen TV's and letterbox on 4x3.

Ron Evans

[Fred Dwyer]

Ron:
The EDIUS project properties display a 1.2 pixel ratio, and the individual clip properties also display a 1.2 pixel ratio. Further the clips display 16 x 9 without any letterboxing on the overlay. On my video monitor, through my ACEDVio card, the full image displays but is squished in on the sides (tall narrow people). Can't say how I did the downconvert, it was a while ago. I know I uploaded m2t files from my camera, probably loaded them in EDIUS and made EDIUS DV AVI files out of them.

[antonsvideo]

if DVD lab shows the asset as 16:9 and you project properties are on 16:9 and letterbox for both items, then all is well and the problem is in the setup menu of your DVD player

make sure to set DVD player is set to 16:9 when widescreen TV is connected

set DVD player to 4:3 when the connected TV is 4:3 and to display letterboxed when source is 16:9 (2 settings in one menu)

also, check the aspect setting on widescreen TV to make sure it is on 16:9 full

note that 90% of widescreen displays are set incorrectly in Australian pubs and clubs, football players look short and fat, I wonder how they can run

[Ron Evans]

To add to what Anton has said check what DVDLab views the file to be either 4x3 or 16x9. I have had some files created by Edius that do not have the 16x9 flag and need to be corrected( there is a tab under the tools menu I think that will correct the flag)( I am on holiday in Perth Australia visiting my daughter so am not near my PC to check!!!!!!). You might want to just create a copy and try the flag change and see if that works.

Ron Evans

[Fred Dwyer]

Ron and Anton:
Thanks for taking the time to help, it's really appreciated. I had no idea that DVD players needed to be set according to the format of TV to which connected, guess I've got a couple of owner's manuals to read. I will certainly take a look at the tools tab in DVD-lab too, and I'll let you know the outcome. Will be away tomorrow and Saturday, but maybe I can squeeze it all in today.
Regards to the men Down Under (travel safely Ron).

[Fred Dwyer]

I think I've learned a lot about DVD's and aspect ratios. One big lesson is that you really can't build a 16x9 SD DVD and be sure it will display properly on everyone's TV. It would be safer to produce 3x2 content if the DVD's are to be widely distributed.

WIth my 16x9 SD DVD's I've come to believe that the "Automatic - Player Decide" setting in DVD-lab is the best choice. Done that way I get the following results:

3x2 screen (Insignia 17" LCD), DVD player (Panasonic) set to 3x2 letterbox: 3x2 DVD's play full screen, and 16x9 DVD's play letterboxed.

16x9 screen (Mitsubishi 32" LCD), DVD player (Panasonic) set to 16x9: 3x2 DVD's play properly IF FORMAT (TV remote control button) selected is "NARROW." 16x9 DVD's play full screen IF FORMAT selected is "STANDARD."

16x9 screen (Westinghouse 19" LCD), DVD recorder/player (Panasonic) set to 16x9: 3x2 DVD's play properly IF wide/narrow (TV remote control button) selects narrow. 16x9 DVD's play full screen IF wide/narrow selects wide.

In both 16x9 cases it is necessary to use the remote control to select the proper image width.

That said, I must say that I'm amazed at the picture quality even with that same number of image pixels spread over the wider area.

Oh yeah, I also learned that I don't know where my user manuals are for a bunch of this stuff, can you help me with that???

[Ron Evans]

Fred,I prefer to set DVDLab to forced letterbox otherwise people with SD 4x3 TV's who are not too savvy about playback settings on the DVD player will almost always get a squeezed image. Most commercial DVD that are wide screen use forced letterbox too. The problem really arises with people who have a 16x9 TV set to JUST ( or whatever its called by each manufacturer that stretches 4x3 to fill screen). They are probably used to switching around the aspect to suit themselves so it is less of a problem for them. I have my Plasma set up to just play what comes in, 4x3 will be 4x3 and 16x9 will be 16x9. DVD player is set for the 16x9 set.
I feel sorry for people who buy a new TV set and can never get it to work properly. When I am asked for advice on a new TV I tell them to keep the old TV to watch broadcast TV and use the new 16x9 for HD broadcasts or movies. Saves a lot of confusion and the viewing is a lot better. HD TV's are often very poor at displaying SD material.

Ron Evans

[GrassValley_BH]

There are two modes you should use on your TV:
Full aka Wide mode, which stretches the image to 16x9. This is used for watching anamorphic DVDs.
Normal mode, which leaves the image centered. This is used for watching 4x3 stuff, including 4x3 non-anamorphic letterboxed content (like broadcast SD).

[Fred Dwyer]

Ron:
To be 100% sure about this I'd have to reshuffle a bunch of stuff and I'm not ready to do that now, but with about 90% surety I'll say that with forced letterbox, my 16x9 displays also letterboxed 16x9 material not allowing it to fill the screen vertically.

[Ron Evans]

There are two modes you should use on your TV:
Full aka Wide mode, which stretches the image to 16x9. This is used for watching anamorphic DVDs.
Normal mode, which leaves the image centered. This is used for watching 4x3 stuff, including 4x3 non-anamorphic letterboxed content (like broadcast SD).

I am not at home but I think my Panasonic Plasma has 4x3, zoom( which will stretch a a letterbox 4x3 image to full 16x9), FUll( normal 16x9 mode,no scaling from my AVCHD SR11 1920x1080 over HDMI), Hi fill( which stretches a 16x9 just enough to remove edge effects), and Just( which stretches a 4x3 to fill screen).I normally have this set at Full for everything which displays 4x3 from my cable box as 4x3 and HD correctly as 16x9.
Ron Evans

[Ron Evans]

Ron:
To be 100% sure about this I'd have to reshuffle a bunch of stuff and I'm not ready to do that now, but with about 90% surety I'll say that with forced letterbox, my 16x9 displays also letterboxed 16x9 material not allowing it to fill the screen vertically.

Hi Fred: I think you ought to check that you have both the DVD player and the TV set up for each other. If you have letterbox on the 16x9 your DVD player may be setup for 4x3 TV( which would letterbox the output) and TV set to Just( which would stretch the 4x3 letterbox image to fill the screen. The result would be smaller letterbox bars than one would think and a slightly stretched effect on image). If you set DVDLab for automatic output would depend on the DVD player which may pan and scan output to 16x9 TV which would fill screen if 16x9 was in Just mode with no letterbox bars but the image would be cropped from the real 16x9 image.
I still think the best solution is forced letterbox as this will only have any effect if DVD player output is setup for a 4x3 TV. In all other cases it will have no effect. Since this did have effect when you tried it makes me think that your DVD player is setup for 4x3 TV output which would also explain what your seeing on your 16x9 with letterbox bars.

Ron Evans

[Fred Dwyer]

Ron:
I'm about ready to run out the door, but I just had to check this out. Good thing I left myself 10% wiggle room, both the "Player Decide" and "Force Letter Box" work fine on my 19" 16:9 Westinghouse with the Panasonic DVD player/recorder. It's not likely that I'll check this on the 32" Mitsubishi (no DVD player installed normally) but I assume it would work the same on that one. Thanks for all your knowledge.