Panasonics P2 Backup ??

[tingsern]

Other than a SDLT 600A tape drive (which is the only one that is MXF aware) - the rest of them just records data as a bit stream only. We can write video files into a directory on a PC - then "dump" the entire subdirectory into tape. Just write on the tape label what this tape is for. Simple solution to the CMS problem.

Because if you want software CMS, you have to start recording VOLSERs (volume serial numbers) on each and every tape. You need things like Standard labels on each tape - so the software can identify what tape is this ... AND you also require a PHYSICAL label so that you can read the internal volume serial number .... are you prepared to do this kind of work?

[sarahstaar]

They all use LTO but there is no industry standard video backup software with a CMS.

[tingsern]

Quantum SDLT 600A is NOT available in my part of the world. No idea why. And the price ranges from US$5K to US$15K depending on where you check. Again, I have no idea why such a vast difference. For MXF awareness - you can't beat that SDLT 600A - unfortunately, it is not available in SE Asia.

As for SoundFreak's hated for tapes - I have nothing to say. To each, his own.
(Oh - you didn't check the title of this thread, it says "Panasonic P2 Backup" - and that means HD and data written in MXF format. Nothing to do with SD here".

As for Fortune 1000's companies usage of tapes in data centres, definitely, it is here to stay. Including CNN, ABC, BBC, etc. Nobody I know of archives data (video in P2 is computer data, anyway) to hard disks - all use tapes. Short term - maybe disks ... but, definitely, long term storage belongs to tapes.

[SoundFreak]

Not sure right or wrong, just a workflow that served me well till now.

I do have to point out that my work is 100% SD (only at home I use HDV) and that it are mainly Seminars, Conventions and Church rally's, therefore I do not need keep the unedited material, and after the job is done it will be discarded.

When you do corporate stuff, advertisements etc. I would use tape for sure, as it is more reliable and it would be paid by the client, eventually.
As my job scope does not justify a such a huge investment, surely not at home, the next best thing is hard drive (until proven wrong)

The other important issue can / will be, is HD footage, this is huge in file size, and even the compressed version of this is big, compared to avi.
Not sure if hard drives are still cost effective compared to $$ for every mB.
For this archive madness I use a Cam with DV Tape, still the biggest bang for your $.

For a couple of months, all raw original captured footage will be kept on hd, until client has confirmed and NO more changes will be made.
I have to point out that 99% of all jobs are recorder straight into the Eius system with no tape based cam backup, only live mixed signal.

After this, only the footage used in the timeline will be kept in a self contained AVI file.
The edius project file will be saved in the same folder, mainly just as marker backup.

For quick and dirty work I use the Mpeg2 program stream what I keep as a 2nd backup to do sample / show reel edits, for paid work (not always) I re-use of course the AVI files

It all comes down to the work you do, and how important your backup is, if it is, and it's chargable to the client (indirectly or not) I would stick with tape at the moment.

But I still hate Tape. :)

[STORMDAVE]

How many backups do you keep per project? Do you use the 2.5" external drives?

It's always interesting to me how people archive solid state footage. I have to change my workflow.

Already started, did some commercial shoots already via P2 and archived the footage to Rev Pro. Good thing these shoots are not that long.

[SoundFreak]

Tape has come a long way...I think you need to read up on LTO4 :)

Did some reading, I stand corrected on Tape speed, it has indeed come a long way since my SureStore 5000.

Still Hate Tape though :)

Edit : Did some price surfing also, pretty steep, the unit price, media price is o.k. because of the lifespan.
Almost the price of an NLE system, so I will stay with HD's (2 Hard drive unit's similar cost compared to 1 Tape)

[THoff]

Grass Valley should bring out an LTO Video backup program that editors can use to back up projects and video footage.

It would be very useful if it had a CMS so clips could be easily found.

Quantum already has the SDLT 600A MXF-aware LTO-3 drive. There are solutions out there, albeit not cheap ones.

[STORMDAVE]

Tape has come a long way...I think you need to read up on LTO4 :)
You archive the footage to tape, then when you're ready to edit it, dump the archive from tape to your local HDs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTO4#Generations

Also I would take Rev Pro 70 over other cartridge solutions. 70GB just isn't cost effective for me.

We shoot P2 but haven't done any events with it yet and our events are about 4.5 hours per camera! So if we shoot 2 cams that's alot of data.

The only downside I see with LTO4 drives is that they are expensive (but tape is not that expensive, they are also reusable) and there is not much as a portable solution out there. These drives are usually SAS and not eSATA so I can't move them around. Looks like I have to build a dedicated machine just for archiving.

The DLT drive TingSern pointed out is a good drive, except not enough space for my particular situation.

[SoundFreak]

For me, I always hated tape based systems.
In the audio days, Philips DCC, first consumer level digital audio recording system and DAT, both tape based, both skipped by me, too clumsy, too slow.
Firstly used the lossy Mini Disc, soon after that, you guesed it, Hard Drive.

When I went into video I played with tapes for a while but changed to Hard Drive based recording very soon after that, Tape just freaks me out.

Maybe when I'm retired, have all the time in the world I'll take another look at it again.
For now, my workflow gives me all the security I need, plus the speed I like.
The fortune 1001 companies have all the time and money in the world, they might print their security video to photo paper frame by frame .......

Sure, I also have drives fail on me several times a years, and yes , the data is gone (still on the plates, but too expensive to recover) but this is only the "working" drive, The back up still exist on Hard Drive (safely in my drawer).

I have roughly 50+ 120 Gb drives, also a drawer full of 500 Gb's and recently switching to 1Tb's, all video works have 2 copies on backup.

Luckily there are choices for various workflows, yours, for many it is tape based, mine and others is drive based, it's always good to have the ability to agree to disagree.

I got it !, make sence, No thanks.

I choose Edius for the "realtime" workflow, for me tape compliments PPro and FCP, I like my backup to be realtime too .........

[tingsern]

I am using Quantum's eSATA DLT-V4 tape drive - 160GB native (compressed is 320GB) ... only US$850 .... cheap.

Tape is by far the BEST archive and transport media. Look at ALL the world's Fortune 1000 companies data centres ... nobody ever backs up data from disks to another disk ... all use tape.

SoundFreak, disks have too MANY moving parts - the spindle motor, the r/w arms and its mechanisms, ... if one of that part fails, you loose everything. For tapes - if the drive packs up, no problem - buy another drive ... the tapes are still intact - got it?

[sarahstaar]

Grass Valley should bring out an LTO Video backup program that editors can use to back up projects and video footage.

It would be very useful if it had a CMS so clips could be easily found.

[sarahstaar]

Hard drives are only temporary storage. I usually have at least two hard drives fail on me a year !!!

Even if you have a raid this is not 100% safe as a power spike could wipe everything.

[SoundFreak]

However it is not safe. If you are going to use hard drives, make at least 2 backups of the same p2 clips. Or if you have a RAID5 or a RAID1, you are better off.

Why is it not safe ?

I am using HD for backup for many years, since 120 Gb models came out, yes those days expensive, but these drives still run.

Now they are not being used as (Video) backup anymore (just audio MP3's), I put 12 units in a home server, using 3 E-IDE raid cards, not running any raid mode, just as single drive, and after many years of service they still run and run and run.

Nowadays of course these 12 drive's can be easily replaced by 1 single drive, more energy efficient (also a bit faster) but tape to me has always been more fragile, difference in tape head from various devices, drop outs etc.
I have currently 5 units, of 1Tb Hard drive in my drawer and only connect them when needed, as a being a back up, usage is very rarely, only connected when needed, these drives will last like a 100+ years, what's not to be safe ?

[STORMDAVE]

I use Panasonics P2 system with Edius Broadcast and am very happy with it.

I shoot everything in HD so end up with a lot of footage that needs archiving. I normally end up with about 300gb of data per week !!!

This is to big for DVD and blue ray and rev pro.

I have been using a LTO 1 drive I got off ebay for £100 using windows backup.


This is very slow it takes about 10 hours to backup 100gb of data !! and another 10 hours to verify the data…

Also the windows backup utility is very basic. It cant even tell you what’s on a tape when you insert it in …

The only backup softwhare that works with LTO tape is for server machines.
There must be something better…….



What do you use to back up all that HD Data???

I was thinking about LTO4 drives and using LTO3 tapes (cheaper).

LTO1 is really old, the first generation of LTO, that's why it's so slow.

Right now hard drives are the cheapest solution available. However it is not safe. If you are going to use hard drives, make at least 2 backups of the same p2 clips. Or if you have a RAID5 or a RAID1, you are better off.

[SoundFreak]

At the moment I use 1Tb hard drives until better, cheaper, and faster comes available.

At least the drives are re-usable, one is always in need of more storage, at least I am ................