Blu-Ray Authoring workflow

[Jim N]

Here is an interesting article by Phillip Hincle, an Edius user on a workflow he has developed to make Blu-Ray DVDs :

http://www.eventdv.net/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?CategoryID=230&ArticleID=48937

using Nero 8.

Jim

[Vaughan Wood]

After reading that article I think it's staggering that Sony's own player wouldn't play a BD-R!
So much for upporting their own format!

Cheers Vaughan

[Ron Evans]

After reading that article I think it's staggering that Sony's own player wouldn't play a BD-R!

I think that was Sony being paranoid about copying commercial discs. I believe the current set of Sony players do in fact support BD-R/RE discs. I am just about to start trying BD authoring too having just bought an LG burner. I have Encore and this month Sony will release a new version of DVD Architect with BDMV authoring.

Ron Evans

[mattmatt]

Firstly, thank you for posting this. It was a good read.... :)


Side note: I'm still having trouble with Encore - it insists on encoding seemingly blu-ray complient files. In fact, anything other than the 720 50p setting is re-encoded and stutters....

Anyone else have this problem?

The options I have in Encore are:

1920 25i
1440 25i
720 50p

The first two . . . 25i???? what the? shouldn't it be 50i (pal land)

[Jerry]

Firstly, thank you for posting this. It was a good read.... :)


Side note: I'm still having trouble with Encore - it insists on encoding seemingly blu-ray complient files. In fact, anything other than the 720 50p setting is re-encoded and stutters....

Anyone else have this problem?

The options I have in Encore are:

1920 25i
1440 25i
720 50p



The first two . . . 25i???? what the? shouldn't it be 50i (pal land)

What are you using to encode the file? If you are using Procoder 3 there are presets at the top of the Procoder page set as a sticky. These DO work!!!
If you provide Encore with uncompressed files and then allow it to encode, then that would work. This also allows you to create 3 different formats at one time. You can do bluray, SD DVD, and Flash.
I have produced bluray with DVDITPROHD and Encore CS3. I prefer Encore.
Now you can get DO Studio Bluray for authoring and rent it by the month.

[Khoi Pham]

The Sony 300 do play BD-R and RE, the guy is not very well informed, most older player needs new firmare upgrade. Anybody with Blu-ray clients should inform their clients and go here to find their firmware to update to the latest.

http://www.blu-ray.com/firmware/

BTW Matt, the preset on top of the page works great no problem for me.

[Philip]

The Sony 300 do play BD-R and RE, the guy is not very well informed, most older player needs new firmare upgrade. Anybody with Blu-ray clients should inform their clients and go here to find their firmware to update to the latest.

http://www.blu-ray.com/firmware/

BTW Matt, the preset on top of the page works great no problem for me.

It is nice to see my article is getting around. Just to add a few comments to what has been mentioned here.

First. The Sony BDP-300 I used to test with at the local electronics superstore did not play or even recognize the disc. Firmware updates may fix the problem but most customers I deal with (wedding clients) are going to hook up a player to their TV and leave it. They don't have the tech savvy to think about upgrading firmware. The plug it in and use it....this is what 90% of customers will do. The model at the store did not recognize the disc. If you check this link directly from Sony Style is lists BD-R and RE as not compatible for the BDP-S300.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665088000

The more expensive players from Sony can recognize the discs but most customers are going to get the cheapest model and actually finding the advanced models most customers want in a local Electronics store is more difficult as they are selling on price. The BDP-S300 is not an older model. It is the main model for sale in store now from Sony. At least at the time I wrote the article it was and in my subsequent visits to stores I still see this model as the main one on the shelf at in my market. It is crazy that Sony players won't recognize their own discs.

I did just check the firmware link and it does list BD-R(E) with BDMV compatibility in Firmware 3.20. That is good to know and I will let my customers know about this. However I still stand by the fact the only a very small percentage of customers are smart enough to know how to update the firmware or will even take the time to see if there is an update available.


You may remember a few months ago some posts that got us in trouble with the moderators for getting off track regarding encoding for BluRay. Much of the information from here got included. Yes Edius and PCE can create a bluray compatible file in mpeg2 but you can can't run the bit rate up too high if you want to get more than an hour on a disc. I chose Nero 8 because it was an economical solution that allowed me to create BDMV disc quickly and easily. It also allowed me to import m2t files generated in Edius for authoring. When it was time to export I was able to encode to h.264 at bit rates up to around 23000-28000 and still get around 1.5 to 2 hours of footage on a single disc. To get that much footage with mpeg2 encoding you would have to use a bit rate much lower and the quality just wasn't there in my opinion. H.264 produces a higher quality encode than mpeg2 at a higher compression. Encode to mpeg2 at those bitrates and you may squeeze and hour onto a disc. I tried lots of different ways of doing things and I found the Nero8 to be the most cost effective simple method.

I have CS3 and tried Encore. Encore has a definite learning curve and if you don't already have it the cost will be pretty high if you want to use it. If you already have Encore and know the workflow then it may be a great alternative. My article was for those that have already spent a boatload of money on all the other pieces of HD and didn't want to spend the dollars needed to add Encore. Nero8 was cost effective, easy to use and I am still happily cranking out BRD projects with Nero8. I haven't opened Encore since. Nero is said to allow you to import already encoded h.264 files but last I checked it re-encodes them so I just bring in a m2t from Edius and let it run with that. My projects look pretty good that way.

Just thought I would hop in and say thanks to those that read the article and also make a few comments on why the workflow went the direction it did.

[Khoi Pham]

It is nice to see my article is getting around. Just to add a few comments to what has been mentioned here.

First. The Sony BDP-300 I used to test with at the local electronics superstore did not play or even recognize the disc. Firmware updates may fix the problem but most customers I deal with (wedding clients) are going to hook up a player to their TV and leave it. They don't have the tech savvy to think about upgrading firmware. The plug it in and use it....this is what 90% of customers will do. The model at the store did not recognize the disc. If you check this link directly from Sony Style is lists BD-R and RE as not compatible for the BDP-S300.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665088000

The more expensive players from Sony can recognize the discs but most customers are going to get the cheapest model and actually finding the advanced models most customers want in a local Electronics store is more difficult as they are selling on price. The BDP-S300 is not an older model. It is the main model for sale in store now from Sony. At least at the time I wrote the article it was and in my subsequent visits to stores I still see this model as the main one on the shelf at in my market. It is crazy that Sony players won't recognize their own discs.

I did just check the firmware link and it does list BD-R(E) with BDMV compatibility in Firmware 3.20. That is good to know and I will let my customers know about this. However I still stand by the fact the only a very small percentage of customers are smart enough to know how to update the firmware or will even take the time to see if there is an update available.


You may remember a few months ago some posts that got us in trouble with the moderators for getting off track regarding encoding for BluRay. Much of the information from here got included. Yes Edius and PCE can create a bluray compatible file in mpeg2 but you can can't run the bit rate up too high if you want to get more than an hour on a disc. I chose Nero 8 because it was an economical solution that allowed me to create BDMV disc quickly and easily. It also allowed me to import m2t files generated in Edius for authoring. When it was time to export I was able to encode to h.264 at bit rates up to around 23000-28000 and still get around 1.5 to 2 hours of footage on a single disc. To get that much footage with mpeg2 encoding you would have to use a bit rate much lower and the quality just wasn't there in my opinion. H.264 produces a higher quality encode than mpeg2 at a higher compression. Encode to mpeg2 at those bitrates and you may squeeze and hour onto a disc. I tried lots of different ways of doing things and I found the Nero8 to be the most cost effective simple method.

I have CS3 and tried Encore. Encore has a definite learning curve and if you don't already have it the cost will be pretty high if you want to use it. If you already have Encore and know the workflow then it may be a great alternative. My article was for those that have already spent a boatload of money on all the other pieces of HD and didn't want to spend the dollars needed to add Encore. Nero8 was cost effective, easy to use and I am still happily cranking out BRD projects with Nero8. I haven't opened Encore since. Nero is said to allow you to import already encoded h.264 files but last I checked it re-encodes them so I just bring in a m2t from Edius and let it run with that. My projects look pretty good that way.

Just thought I would hop in and say thanks to those that read the article and also make a few comments on why the workflow went the direction it did.

I'm sorry but your numbers are not right, I have author a dozen BD disc at 2 hrs. lengh using 40000kb/s max and 26600kb/s average and 150000kb/s minimum and it will come out to about 24GB file, perfect for a single layer BD-R, at this bitrate it is still higher than HDV and so there are virtually no difference between BD and the original HDV file, no doubt that AVC is better and more efficient but you can definately produced exellent BD with MPEG2 and ProCoder.
BD is a cutting edge technology, that is why when you buy a BD movie, all of them have a note informing you that your player may need a firmware update, if you have a PS3 it is a simple as clicking a button, if you are selling a BD disc to your clients, it is your responsibility to inform your clients that this is new technology and that their player might need an update, that is the way things are now, at the time the 300 was produced, not that many burners are even out yet, so yeah it will need an update, you make it sound like Sony is stupid that they make a player than can't even read their own format disc.

[Philip]

I'm sorry but your numbers are not right, I have author a dozen BD disc at 2 hrs. lengh using 40000kb/s max and 26600kb/s average and 150000kb/s minimum and it will come out to about 24GB file, perfect for a single layer BD-R, at this bitrate it is still higher than HDV and so there are virtually no difference between BD and the original HDV file, no doubt that AVC is better and more efficient but you can definately produced exellent BD with MPEG2 and ProCoder.
BD is a cutting edge technology, that is why when you buy a BD movie, all of them have a note informing you that your player may need a firmware update, if you have a PS3 it is a simple as clicking a button, if you are selling a BD disc to your clients, it is your responsibility to inform your clients that this is new technology and that their player might need an update, that is the way things are now, at the time the 300 was produced, not that many burners are even out yet, so yeah it will need an update, you make it sound like Sony is stupid that they make a player than can't even read their own format disc.

Well I must have been doing something wrong. When I was doing mpeg2 HD encoding for bluray I couldn't get much more than 1.5 hours at around 23000 I used CBR encoding so that may have skewed the numbers a little. In SD DVDs I had found CBR to more dependable on playback so I just adopted it for bluray too.

While BR movies may mention to customers about upgrading their firmware I still doubt seriously that many of them do it. Most just plug it in and start playing movies. I am sure most sales people at the electronic stores aren't explaining the firmware update process either.

My letter that is included with each Bluray disc tells them which players I found compatible and also tells them to take the disc along and test it in the store in the actual player before purchasing a new one. That cuts issues down alot. :-).

Thank you for the link on the firmware update. I will make sure to get this information to my customers. From what I understand from my customers none have purchased a bluray player yet except one. So chances are when they do go buy one they will take the disc with them.

[Jerry]

Well I must have been doing something wrong. When I was doing mpeg2 HD encoding for bluray I couldn't get much more than 1.5 hours at around 23000 I used CBR encoding so that may have skewed the numbers a little. In SD DVDs I had found CBR to more dependable on playback so I just adopted it for bluray too.

While BR movies may mention to customers about upgrading their firmware I still doubt seriously that many of them do it. Most just plug it in and start playing movies. I am sure most sales people at the electronic stores aren't explaining the firmware update process either.

My letter that is included with each Bluray disc tells them which players I found compatible and also tells them to take the disc along and test it in the store in the actual player before purchasing a new one. That cuts issues down alot. :-).

Thank you for the link on the firmware update. I will make sure to get this information to my customers. From what I understand from my customers none have purchased a bluray player yet except one. So chances are when they do go buy one they will take the disc with them.

I read your review at NAB in the actual magazine. I am not going to comment on the review except to state that you need to do more research before writing another article.
As far as updates:
The BDP-300 and 301 had firmware by the end of 2007(I believe November or early December) that would allow BD-r playback. Customers can request a firmware update disc from Sony and will receive it in about a week.
How tech savy do they have to be to insert a disc and let it play.
I think you were writing this article in January or February of 2008.
The last update for the 300 or 301 was June 20, 2008.

As far as bitrates:
I remember you coming on the forum and trying to get information from many of us. Obviously, you didn't listen.
http://ediusforum.grassvalley.com/fo...hlight=phillip

You evidently went to press with a settings panel that was put on the DVDITPROHD forum by me almost 2 years ago. As you may have noticed, it has since been removed, by me as well. This is Outdated information that produces a bluray at settings that I currently use to put bluray information onto regular DVDs.
The Procoder 3 settings, that are stickied on the Procoder forum, have been there for quite a while. I do believe they were there when you were writing the article.
Nero:
As opposed to Encore CS3 and DVDITPROHD and DO Studio. Nero 8 produces a 'homemade'
menu look as opposed to a professional authoring package.
If this is what you use, more power to you. Far be it from me to tell your clients what they want.

Yes, these larger more expensive programs take a little longer to learn, but
the resulting disc, will look more as if you purchased it from a store than from an individual.
If your spending money on a good camera, good editing software, a fast computer, why skimp on the authoring and Encoding(Prodcoder 3) software.

[MinMinc.]

I've been importing Canopus HQ avi's into Roxio proHD program and creating great Blu-ray's with chapters, for over 10 months without one coaster??? blu-coaster that is. Gary

[shueardm]

I just wish to state what I did (some months ago)

I went to a SONY premium retailer and played my BD-R's and BD-RW's in every single BD player they had and they all worked. Maybe because I used a proven BD multiplexeing tool coded by SONIC which Adobe also use?

I applaude you for writing an article to help people make Blu-ray cheaply. I wont touch the Cyberlink, Ulead or Nero garbage though-- but then I don't need to.

[Jerry]

I just wish to state what I did (some months ago)

I went to a SONY premium retailer and played my BD-R's and BD-RW's in every single BD player they had and they all worked. Maybe because I used a proven BD multiplexeing tool coded by SONIC which Adobe also use?

I applaude you for writing an article to help people make Blu-ray cheaply. I wont touch the Cyberlink, Ulead or Nero garbage though-- but then I don't need to.

I believe the best and still the most reliable way to create bluray discs is to use proven encoding and authoring programs. If it is too expensive to make the move into bluray, then hold off until you can afford to do so.

As far as one's ability to use the program, well, that is the catch.
Reading the manual and doing tutorials provided by the creation company will reduce stress as well as coasters.
If you just go buy the program and expect everyone on a forum to teach you how to use the program, well, you deserve what you get.
I'm all for helping people on this forum. I believe I have done that a time or two. But, it is each persons responsibility to take it upon themselves to
do the leg work, so to speak. This applies to Edius, Procoder, Photoshop, AE, etc.

As far as bluray being new technology, well, it isn't anymore. It might be the most recent released technology. It has been around for almost 2 years now. I believe September will be the 2 year anniversary of the first Sony bluray burner, which I still use.

Sorry for the downer!

[Khoi Pham]

"As far as bluray being new technology, well, it isn't anymore. It might be the most recent released technology. It has been around for almost 2 years now. I believe September will be the 2 year anniversary of the first Sony bluray burner, which I still use."

Hey Jerry, it is still new because you still misspelled it. (-:

[Jim N]

I guess what this thread reveals is that there are requirements for Blu-ray authoring at all levels of the market. I often use Nero to burn extra DVD's from files created in Edius 3.62 off the timeline when I need further copies. My institutional customers often just want access to the vision and creative menu design isn't that important for them so it's great to know Nero has useful functionality with Blu-ray as well. It's also interesting to read those further comments regarding higher end authoring packages which I will no-doubt use when appropriate. Despite this I reckon Philip's done a great job exposing that Nero workflow-alternative and importantly making the effort to share his solutions.

Jim