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18FPS 16mm film transfer to 1080-18P?

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  • 18FPS 16mm film transfer to 1080-18P?

    We have just had a transfer of some 60's era 16mm double perf family films shot at 18 FPS on a Bolex. They were digitised at 2K and actually look quite good (when the exposure is OK!). Is there any way to create a HD Edius project with 18 FPS at 1080P so I can grade and export the vision to an MP4? My version 8.52 Edius on the particular PC I am using allows 15 and 20 FPS, but not 18. The digitised masters were supplied in a ProRes codec at 18 FPS.

    I am trying to avoid the frame blending that occurs at other frame rates.

    If not Edius any alternative?

    thanks

    Jim

  • #2
    When I capture movie film in HD, my Velocity software processes it to whatever framerate I select. I then export it to the usual 29.97 fps for dv or hdv. On the Edius timeline it looks just fine. I think frame blending is required to go from 18 fps to around 30 fps for dv.
    Regards,

    Jon

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    • #3
      I think TMPGenc MW 7 will do what you want. I do not have any 18fps stuff around to check but I think conversion to MP4 will stay at whatever the frame rate was for the source. In timeline mode you could also correct for exposure issues too. It will also change frmae rate with optical flow if that is what you want etc. Well worth having as a piece of software.
      Ron Evans

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      • #4
        First off 16mm double perf would be usually shot at 16fps.
        When the telecine is done the telecine would be set to 16 BUT the Video recording device be it tape or SSD would be recording at 25/29.97 depending on whether PAL or NTSC. If 100ft of 16mm ran for 4mins 10 sec then the corresponding AVI/MOV will be the same duration ie an identical playback time....so no speed change. IMHO and having transferred film for 30 + years supplying files at 18fps is plain daft, particularly when post production is going to happen.
        I would bet this was a frame scan and I would suggest you get them to re-output the files to 30p that you can edit/grade hassle free.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by DigitalDave View Post
          First off 16mm double perf would be usually shot at 16fps.
          My old Bolex16 could shoot per my manual :: 12, and16 fps for fast motion effects, 18fps is the old standard for silent films and 24 FPS is for “normal” speed, 32, 48 and 64 FPS are for slow motion.

          Double perf was for the older Bolex. Serial numbers above 76471 take single perf film. I never shot at 16fps. I used 24 most of the time. Sometimes 18 and once in awhile 48 for slow Mo.

          Now for digitizing the film, My lab had a 5 blade shutter 16mm projector. The extra blades pretty much got rid of the strobing. They captured at 29.97 on 3/4 Umatic back in the days and later BetaSP. There are still some labs that can do that type of conversion. In fact, Kodak still does 8mm and 16mm conversion. They'll give you a Thumbdrive. Easy.

          https://kodakdigitizing.com/products/16mm-conversion
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          • #6
            Thanks for your suggestions guys. Its amazing the depth of knowledge on this forum and the help that is available!

            regards, Jim N

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JohnnyD View Post

              My old Bolex16 could shoot per my manual :: 12, and16 fps for fast motion effects, 18fps is the old standard for silent films and 24 FPS is for “normal” speed, 32, 48 and 64 FPS are for slow motion.

              Double perf was for the older Bolex. Serial numbers above 76471 take single perf film. I never shot at 16fps. I used 24 most of the time. Sometimes 18 and once in awhile 48 for slow Mo.

              Now for digitizing the film, My lab had a 5 blade shutter 16mm projector. The extra blades pretty much got rid of the strobing. They captured at 29.97 on 3/4 Umatic back in the days and later BetaSP. There are still some labs that can do that type of conversion. In fact, Kodak still does 8mm and 16mm conversion. They'll give you a Thumbdrive. Easy.

              https://kodakdigitizing.com/products/16mm-conversion
              18fps was certainly the lower speed for amateur sound with pro and serious enthusiasts using 24fps. (same as 8mm) I have both optical and magnetic 16mm capability and "pretty much" is not in my vocabulary, there is no strobe.
              Most of the double perf silent film I see to transfer has been shot at 16fps and some is occasionally marked as 16fps. I have never seen any shot at 12 fps although I dont dispute that older Bolex cameras could shoot that slow. Ironically a hub (not a reel) 100ft of 16mmBW came in for transfer yesterday, judging the speed becomes as visual call - 18 or 24 is a no brainer but 16 or 18 not so easy. I can still transfer to UMatic, Beta SP, DigiBeta, DV, DVcam or to DVD or File on USB flashdrive/Hard Drive or upload.

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              • #8
                Sorry - am I understanding this correctly, your 2K master telecine files are 18fps yes?

                Paul :-)
                Edius Edits at: http://www.vimeo.com/user781619/videos

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by PaulTV View Post
                  Sorry - am I understanding this correctly, your 2K master telecine files are 18fps yes?

                  Paul :-)
                  That was what the OP posted - "The digitised masters were supplied in a ProRes codec at 18 FPS".

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                  • #10
                    Sorry - am I understanding this correctly, your 2K master telecine files are 18fps yes?

                    Paul :-)

                    Yes, that's correct. As it turns out there are a lot of consecutive "stills", that is 1 frame images that seem to be in there. I dont know if they were acquisition mistakes or a feature of the camera, but they flash by subliminally at 18FPS. Id like to get frame grabs of them, or allow people to pause at least when replaying without frame blending. So that means a straight 18FPS playback MP4 distribution file. I'd still like to grade at 18FPS.

                    They were scanned on a Scan Station at 2K. 16mm is definitely better at 2K than SD.
                    Last edited by Jim N; 06-28-2022, 02:48 AM.

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