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Creating SD from HD - is project switching still considered the best way?

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  • Creating SD from HD - is project switching still considered the best way?

    It's been a while since I needed to do this for a DVD run but is switching the HD project to SD (Lanczos 3 High Quality) still considered the best means of down conversion? My previous work flow would be project switch- create HQ AVI and encode that to m2v in ProCoder ***(2 pass mastering).
    *** I still consider Procoder as good as any MPEG2 encoder out there.

  • #2
    My processes is to create a HQX file and then use TMPGenc standalone with their DVD preset, Lancszos 3, full no side bars in the resize filter. You can then adjust rate and see on the encode scale to just get under the max size for DVD. I always use VBR 2 pass as my programs are always long. Then author in DVDArchitect.
    Ron Evans

    Threadripper 1920 stock clock 3.7, Gigabyte Designare X399 MB, 32G G.Skill 3200CL14, 500G M.2 NVME OS, 500G EVO 850 temp. 1T EVO 850 render, 6T Source, 2 x 1T NVME, MSI 1080Ti 11G , EVGA 850 G2, LG BLuray Burner, BM IP4K, WIN10 Pro, Shuttle Pro2

    ASUS PB328 monitor, BenQ BL2711U 4K preview monitor, EDIUS X, 9.5 WG, Vegas 18, Resolve Studio 17


    Cameras: GH5S, GH5, FDR-AX100, FDR-AX53, DJI OSMO Pocket, Atomos Ninja V x 2

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Ron Evans View Post
      My processes is to create a HQX file and then use TMPGenc standalone with their DVD preset, Lancszos 3, full no side bars in the resize filter. You can then adjust rate and see on the encode scale to just get under the max size for DVD. I always use VBR 2 pass as my programs are always long. Then author in DVDArchitect.
      Interesting, so TMPGenc does the downscale.

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      • #4
        Yes and unlike the plugin will remove the black bars. Yes I know that the black bars come from the correct downconvert that does not match aspect ratio. But I find the black bars annoying. The selection in the full version of TMPGenc allows a downconvert without black bars ( a small crop so that must be allowed for ) . Being able to have control over other filters is also better than the plugin for EDIUS too. I do my edit in HD most of the time whether in EDIUS or Resolve . Export a HQX file from either and do the encode/downscale in TMPGenc.
        Ron Evans

        Threadripper 1920 stock clock 3.7, Gigabyte Designare X399 MB, 32G G.Skill 3200CL14, 500G M.2 NVME OS, 500G EVO 850 temp. 1T EVO 850 render, 6T Source, 2 x 1T NVME, MSI 1080Ti 11G , EVGA 850 G2, LG BLuray Burner, BM IP4K, WIN10 Pro, Shuttle Pro2

        ASUS PB328 monitor, BenQ BL2711U 4K preview monitor, EDIUS X, 9.5 WG, Vegas 18, Resolve Studio 17


        Cameras: GH5S, GH5, FDR-AX100, FDR-AX53, DJI OSMO Pocket, Atomos Ninja V x 2

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by DigitalDave View Post
          It's been a while since I needed to do this for a DVD run but is switching the HD project to SD (Lanczos 3 High Quality) still considered the best means of down conversion? My previous work flow would be project switch- create HQ AVI and encode that to m2v in ProCoder ***(2 pass mastering).
          *** I still consider Procoder as good as any MPEG2 encoder out there.
          what are you using for authoring?
          Anton Strauss
          Antons Video Productions - Sydney

          EDIUS X WG with BM Mini Monitor 4k and BM Mini Recorder, Gigabyte X299 UD4 Pro, Intel Core i9 9960X 16 Core, 32 Threads @ 4.3Ghz, Corsair Water Cooling, Gigabyte RTX-2070 Super 3X 8GB Video Card, Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD for System, 8TB Samsung Raid0 SSD for Video, 2 Pioneer BDR-209 Blu-ray/DVD burners, Hotswap Bay for 3.5" Sata and 2.5" SSD, Phanteks Enthoo Pro XL Tower, Corsair 32GB DDR4 Ram, Win10 Pro

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          • #6
            Originally posted by antonsvideo View Post

            what are you using for authoring?
            Encore, which I will use for this project due to menu structure. I also have Architect but never really made the switch. For non menued loop play DVD or BR I use Edius.

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            • #7
              in that case, switch project to SD with lanczos3 HQ enabled and print to file, mpeg2 SD elementary streams

              Encore will do no further encoding to the m2v and ac3 file

              depending on duration, the highest bitrate I set is 7700 for video and 256 for ac3 audio and be sure to close GOP

              Anton-01509.png Anton-01508.png
              Anton Strauss
              Antons Video Productions - Sydney

              EDIUS X WG with BM Mini Monitor 4k and BM Mini Recorder, Gigabyte X299 UD4 Pro, Intel Core i9 9960X 16 Core, 32 Threads @ 4.3Ghz, Corsair Water Cooling, Gigabyte RTX-2070 Super 3X 8GB Video Card, Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD for System, 8TB Samsung Raid0 SSD for Video, 2 Pioneer BDR-209 Blu-ray/DVD burners, Hotswap Bay for 3.5" Sata and 2.5" SSD, Phanteks Enthoo Pro XL Tower, Corsair 32GB DDR4 Ram, Win10 Pro

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              • #8
                Originally posted by antonsvideo View Post
                in that case, switch project to SD with lanczos3 HQ enabled and print to file, mpeg2 SD elementary streams

                Encore will do no further encoding to the m2v and ac3 file

                depending on duration, the highest bitrate I set is 7700 for video and 256 for ac3 audio and be sure to close GOP

                Anton-01509.png Anton-01508.png
                Funny as most of my DVD authoring was done in Encore starting at 1.5 and then 2 and 6 I don't think I have ever NOT used closed GOP. 2 variants of this project, 61 and 70mins and going back to the days of being a disciple of encoding Guru Ben Waggoner, I have rarely gone above 6500, which is ideal for this duration. If time permits I will compare the off the timeline Edius encode - v - Procoder 2 pass Mastering Quality, which I still consider to be the gold standard.

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                • #9
                  Mastering Quality of Procoder was just a fancy name, I doubt you will see much difference between super fine of EDIUS and mastering quality of Procoder with bitrates of above 7000

                  You will see a difference in long projects with low bitrate, for 70 min you can use 7500 for video and 256 for audio and you have plenty of spare space on the DVD
                  Anton Strauss
                  Antons Video Productions - Sydney

                  EDIUS X WG with BM Mini Monitor 4k and BM Mini Recorder, Gigabyte X299 UD4 Pro, Intel Core i9 9960X 16 Core, 32 Threads @ 4.3Ghz, Corsair Water Cooling, Gigabyte RTX-2070 Super 3X 8GB Video Card, Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD for System, 8TB Samsung Raid0 SSD for Video, 2 Pioneer BDR-209 Blu-ray/DVD burners, Hotswap Bay for 3.5" Sata and 2.5" SSD, Phanteks Enthoo Pro XL Tower, Corsair 32GB DDR4 Ram, Win10 Pro

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    [QUOTE=antonsvideo;n566935]Mastering Quality of Procoder was just a fancy name, I doubt you will see much difference between super fine of EDIUS and mastering quality of Procoder with bitrates of above 7000

                    Not sure about "fancy name". It was slower had 2pass VBR option and more precise. For long projects or anything going for a big dup it gave the best and most dependable results.
                    How would you rate the Edius mpeg engine against TMPGenc? I never got into their plugins as I felt I was paying twice over for mpeg2 and mp4.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DigitalDave View Post
                      How would you rate the Edius mpeg engine against TMPGenc? I never got into their plugins as I felt I was paying twice over for mpeg2 and mp4.
                      Dave, I have both TMPGenc plugins. I picked up the AVC plugin for the ability to export streaming ready files, do 2 pass encode, and Blu-Ray friendly h264 that didn't need re-encoding in Encore (three things that were missing from Edius). I know Edius can to the streaming friendly exports now, but I picked these up for Edius 8 and then upgraded to Edius 9 versions before that feature was added to 9. There are also a lot more options in there in general if you need to get at them.

                      Since I had already purchased the AVC pluging, I got a reduced rate on the mpeg2 plugin. I can't say I have done a lot of critical side by side comparison between the native mpeg2 and the plugin, but the plugin does offer a lot more options for fine tuning if required. I do like the fact that it offers encoding 23.98 with a soft pulldown flag for NTSC DVD assets, has a deblocking filter to help DVD avoid some of the macro blocking that can happen, and has a scene detection feature to help avoid encoding errors at scene changes. Edius probably has some deblocking in it's encoder, as the mpeg2 quality seems very good, but it is nice to see that it is there in the TMPGenc plugin. There are a whole pile more settings that I hardly ever touch in there such as quantization maticies, DC precision, deinterlacing, PAR, GOP structures, etc.

                      All in all, i can't say it was a bad decision to get them
                      Edius WG 9.55.7761, various 3rd party plugins, VisTitle 2.9.5.6, Win 7 Ultimate SP1, i7-4790K @ 4GHz with HD4600 GPU embedded, MSI Z97 Gaming 7 Motherboard, 32GB Kingston HyperX RAM, nVidia GTX680 4GB GPU, Matrox MX02 Mini MAX, Corsair 750W PSU, Corsair H110i GT Water Cooler, Corsair C70 case, 8TB Internal RAID 0/stripe (2x4TB Seagate SATAIII HDD's, Win7 Software stripe), 1TB Crucial MX500 SSD, Pioneer BDR-207D, Dual 1920x1080 monitors (one on GTX680 and one on Intel HD4600).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [QUOTE=DigitalDave;n566936]
                        Originally posted by antonsvideo View Post
                        Mastering Quality of Procoder was just a fancy name, I doubt you will see much difference between super fine of EDIUS and mastering quality of Procoder with bitrates of above 7000

                        Not sure about "fancy name". It was slower had 2pass VBR option and more precise. For long projects or anything going for a big dup it gave the best and most dependable results.
                        How would you rate the Edius mpeg engine against TMPGenc? I never got into their plugins as I felt I was paying twice over for mpeg2 and mp4.
                        Dave, I had(still have them somewhere) all 3 versions of Procoder. It was the best for it's time. Time has moved on and so did I. I use TMPGE MW7 stand alone for various things.
                        The NVENC output setup provides far more options than Edius ever will. Encodes are clean and my only negative is the lack of wide format MXF acceptance. TMPGE advertises that it uses MXF, but that is within only 1 or 2 MXF versions. Speaking of NVENC. Where Edius cuts off GPU compliance in the 1000 series cards, MW7 will use
                        earlier cards. I believe the 600 version series may be the cut off. My 980ti won't work in Edius X or 9, but it works great in MW7.

                        The MPEG and AVC encoders are really good. You get dual pass and now HDR output options with the AVC encoder. I only use these on Edius 9.
                        Edius X's encoder is pretty good. When the AVC version for Edius X came out I would have bought the AVC version for Edius X. However, it did not include MW7's NVENC output and settings and a software option for H.265(that may have been added-not sure). A few versions in, Edius X added NVENC export. An H.265 software output option would be nice for users with non compliant GPU's.

                        I used both the MPEG and AVC encoders when doing my Encore DVD's/BluRay projects.....mostly AVC in the later years. Always worked well....especially, with the dual pass option. Handbrake is excellent at very low bitrates. It also offers an H.265 software export option.

                        I've used TMPGE Authoring 6 and it works every time. There is an upside down and backwards learning curve to using it though. You can encode for DVD and BluRay within Authoring 6 and only author the disc once. My last two projects have been delivered on thumb drives and in UHD. I'm looking at discs in the rear view mirror now. I will retain the capability for those odd jobs.

                        Download the trial and give them a test.




                        Jerry
                        Six Gill DV
                        www.sgdvtutorials.com
                        If you own the Tutorials and you need help, PM me.

                        Vistitle YouTube Channel
                        https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMVlxC8Am4qFbkXJRoPAnMQ/videos

                        Windows 10 Pro up to v.1803 Tweaks for Edius Users
                        http://sgdvtutorials.com/WIN%2010%20...%20V.2.0.0.pdf


                        Main System:: Azrock Z97 Extreme 6, [email protected], 32gb ram, NZXT Z63, Win10 Pro 64, Samsung 850 pro, E7.5/8.5/E9 on separate SSD drives, 2TB Sabrent M.2 NVME, BM MINI MONITOR 4K, 12tb RAID 0 on backplane ,2 BD, Dual LG 27GK65S-B 144Hz monitors, GTX 1080ti SC Black.
                        Second System: EditHD Ultimax-i7, X58, [email protected], Corsair H80, Win764, 24gb ram, Storm 3g, Samsung 840 Pro 256, 4tb and 6tb RAID 0 on backplane, GTX 980ti Classified, Edius 9, Apple 30", Samsung 24", dual BD.

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                        • #13
                          Like Jerry I use TMPGenc MW7. This latest version will manage HDR too. I have used to de interlace double frame rate, 60i to 60P to retain the correct temporal motion and it works well . It is my go to encoder. I have the earlier Authoring Works too but could never get my head around the convoluted authoring so stayed with DVDArchitect. I like the stand alone for a number of reasons rather than being confined to EDIUS for the plugin.
                          Ron Evans

                          Threadripper 1920 stock clock 3.7, Gigabyte Designare X399 MB, 32G G.Skill 3200CL14, 500G M.2 NVME OS, 500G EVO 850 temp. 1T EVO 850 render, 6T Source, 2 x 1T NVME, MSI 1080Ti 11G , EVGA 850 G2, LG BLuray Burner, BM IP4K, WIN10 Pro, Shuttle Pro2

                          ASUS PB328 monitor, BenQ BL2711U 4K preview monitor, EDIUS X, 9.5 WG, Vegas 18, Resolve Studio 17


                          Cameras: GH5S, GH5, FDR-AX100, FDR-AX53, DJI OSMO Pocket, Atomos Ninja V x 2

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                          • #14
                            First off, thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience. Whilst, I am regularly making DVD "one offs" from transfer work, (as well as to flash drive), the days of the bigger runs, I thought, as Jerry puts it were in the rear view mirror. However, that changed last week, hence the downscaling question. I tried an earlier version of Mastering Works which I could not get into but will download the TMPGenc trial and give it a whirl and do some comparisons.
                            FWIW the only thing Encore ever encodes is animated menus that are AVIs or WAV to AC3-NEVER EVER timeline Video.

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