Edius 9.54 preserve Ancillary Data issue

[BernH]

Mike, just to clarify, closed captioning In its truest sense is an ntsc specific thing. Anything else, such as your mentioned bbc spec is really a special form of subtitles and are delivered as a sidecar srt file. The thing I am talking about is ntsc closed captioning embedded in the mxf file.

[createmedia]

Hi BernH

Yes there is also 608 over 708 as well and I don't have MacCaption or its Windows equivalent CaptionMaker

There appears to be a big difference between the American broadcasters 608/708 closed captions and for instance the BBC who have their own requirements.

I don’t know how Edius is going to cope with all the variants I have found

https://bbc.github.io/subtitle-guidelines/#Files

From the above link

23.2 General subtitle information (GSI) block

Subtitles must conform to the EBU specification TECH 3264-E.

Mike

[BernH]

No caption displays on the clip exported from your original without embedded captions, i.e. standard MXF clip, by either merging an MCC or an SCC in the bin and setting the view correctly.

Subtitle edit only seems to save SCC files, no MCC option in there.

Only your original clip works on 608 and 708 by changing the view settings - good

I can't see a way of adding both SCC and MCC on the same clip in Edius.

Set up Vistitle on V2 exported MCC but still no data in the MCC file.

Looking at the exported MCC from Edius seems to have no data just the headers unless notepad cannot read the file

// Computer Prompting and Captioning Company
// Ancillary Data Packet Transfer File
//
// Permission to generate this format is granted provided that
// 1. This ANC Transfer file format is used on an as-is basis and no warranty is given, and
// 2. This entire descriptive information text is included in a generated .mcc file.
//
// General file format:
// HH:MM:SS:FF(tab)[Hexadecimal ANC data in groups of 2 characters]
// Hexadecimal data starts with the Ancillary Data Packet DID (Data ID defined in S291M)
// and concludes with the Check Sum following the User Data Words.
// Each time code line must contain at most one complete ancillary data packet.
// To transfer additional ANC Data successive lines may contain identical time code.
// Time Code Rate=[24, 25, 30, 30DF, 50, 60, 60DF]
//
// ANC data bytes may be represented by one ASCII character according to the following schema:
// G FAh 00h 00h
// H 2 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// I 3 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// J 4 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// K 5 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// L 6 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// M 7 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// N 8 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// O 9 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// P FBh 80h 80h
// Q FCh 80h 80h
// R FDh 80h 80h
// S 96h 69h
// T 61h 01h
// U E1h 00h 00h 00h
// Z 00h
//
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

UUID=1C34E975-E165-48F5-A758-142F399C49CD
Creation Program=EDIUS
Creation Date=Wednesday, February 17, 2021
Creation Time=17:37:49
Time Code Rate=30DF

That's the end of file

Doing the same from the Vistitle clip to SCC export, when attempting to import the just made SCC file: Error message codec not supported, uh?

Doesn't look good this.

Mike

Mike, no there is no way of embedding both scc/608 and mcc/708 at the same time. I have not looked at the mcc sidecar function, as most broadcasters that want a sidecar file currently ask for scc. Ther are some online converters that can supposedly convert scc to mcc, but I haven't tried them, as I have Mac Caption at my disposal. I also don't use the Vistitle route for the same reason.

It may be possible to do both 608 and 708 by doing something like a 608 embed and using that as a source for a 708 embed, but it isn't a process I have explored since Media Composer is making the master file in one encode.

When/if Edius does institute the ability to edit captions right in the software, most of these hurdles and hoops will hopefully go away,and it will hopefully give Edius a big advantage, especially if we can embed bot 608 and 708 at the same time, but we still don't know when that is supposed to happen.

For now, I will continue to use my proven workflow that uses mac Caption to make an aaf file, which then uses media composer to embed as both 608 and 708, then using Edius when required for repackaging for one broadcaster into a format that my old v8 of Media Composer can't do.

[createmedia]

From support

"The editing mode for CC is not yet enabled. Outside of EDIUS should work."

I will stop trying in Edius then!

Mike

[createmedia]

No caption displays on the clip exported from your original without embedded captions, i.e. standard MXF clip, by either merging an MCC or an SCC in the bin and setting the view correctly.

Subtitle edit only seems to save SCC files, no MCC option in there.

Only your original clip works on 608 and 708 by changing the view settings - good

I can't see a way of adding both SCC and MCC on the same clip in Edius.

Set up Vistitle on V2 exported MCC but still no data in the MCC file.

Looking at the exported MCC from Edius seems to have no data just the headers unless notepad cannot read the file

// Computer Prompting and Captioning Company
// Ancillary Data Packet Transfer File
//
// Permission to generate this format is granted provided that
// 1. This ANC Transfer file format is used on an as-is basis and no warranty is given, and
// 2. This entire descriptive information text is included in a generated .mcc file.
//
// General file format:
// HH:MM:SS:FF(tab)[Hexadecimal ANC data in groups of 2 characters]
// Hexadecimal data starts with the Ancillary Data Packet DID (Data ID defined in S291M)
// and concludes with the Check Sum following the User Data Words.
// Each time code line must contain at most one complete ancillary data packet.
// To transfer additional ANC Data successive lines may contain identical time code.
// Time Code Rate=[24, 25, 30, 30DF, 50, 60, 60DF]
//
// ANC data bytes may be represented by one ASCII character according to the following schema:
// G FAh 00h 00h
// H 2 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// I 3 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// J 4 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// K 5 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// L 6 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// M 7 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// N 8 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// O 9 x (FAh 00h 00h)
// P FBh 80h 80h
// Q FCh 80h 80h
// R FDh 80h 80h
// S 96h 69h
// T 61h 01h
// U E1h 00h 00h 00h
// Z 00h
//
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

UUID=1C34E975-E165-48F5-A758-142F399C49CD
Creation Program=EDIUS
Creation Date=Wednesday, February 17, 2021
Creation Time=17:37:49
Time Code Rate=30DF

That's the end of file

Doing the same from the Vistitle clip to SCC export, when attempting to import the just made SCC file: Error message codec not supported, uh?

Doesn't look good this.

Mike

[BernH]

Thanks for that follow up Bern. I fully understood what you wanted and as I mentioned, I had no problem with that in E9.xx. I had not tried in X. I was trying to confirm that Mike had the correct settings since he confirmed your initial findings. I haven't heard anything about doing both a 608 and 708 embed process. But I do know that at some point we are supposed to be able to edit the CC so that may be somewhat like your request for a data file. I honestly have not heard any further discussion of that in a while. It took so long to get the present CC workflow, I have no idea of where we currently stand on any time frame.

Thanks Pat. I suspect that if and when the editing of the CC right in Edius becomes a reality, it will probably require some sort of CC track to be added, instead of just having a sidecar file like the current solution uses. This ability to edit would be a huge advantage for Edius.

I do run Mac caption and media composer, resolve, and mistika at the office as well as several other software packages and Edius, subtitle edit, and some other softwares at home. I am routinely doing packaging for broadcast, web and cinema at the office with some of the broadcast packaging spilling over to home where I use Edius, as well as a little TVC work. I also normally do a couple of videography gigs a year from home, just as a little hobby/activity with a buddy of mine (we used to do a lot more when we were younger and poorer), but Covid has been keeping that at bay this year.

All that said if I can be of any assistance in testing a scenario with any of our software, let me know.

[GrassValley_PS]

Thanks for that follow up Bern. I fully understood what you wanted and as I mentioned, I had no problem with that in E9.xx. I had not tried in X. I was trying to confirm that Mike had the correct settings since he confirmed your initial findings. I haven't heard anything about doing both a 608 and 708 embed process. But I do know that at some point we are supposed to be able to edit the CC so that may be somewhat like your request for a data file. I honestly have not heard any further discussion of that in a while. It took so long to get the present CC workflow, I have no idea of where we currently stand on any time frame.

[BernH]

Mike . Scc is used for 608 CC in Edius and mcc for 708. You need to set the caption display type correctly

[createmedia]

Oops I did not have the Captions embed in file option set in Edius X.

My fault

Media info now happy with export of original clip.

What I can't get to work in Edius X is to bring the no caption previous export into Edius and the scc exported from Subtitle Edit merge as clip with captions, no captions display, but the original clip does display Captions in the sequence.

Tried Exporting the original clip as an mcc and an scc file and in the bin merged with the non captioned clip: no captions display.

Looking in Notepad the mcc and scc files have timecode in plain text and the data in hex so there is data there.

The add to bin and detect Caption doesn't do anything except add the mxf video clip to the bin the mcc and scc files have the same name as the clip but nothing is detected.

Mike

[BernH]

OK folks, I seem to have fixed my problem. I uninstalled and re-installed Edius 9.54.6706, and the CC ancillary data now seems to be passing correctly. I guess I must have had either a buggered install when I updated to this version or something got buggered in between then and now either in the Edius install or the C++ install that goes with Edius.

I do apologize for this. I have not been completely on my game the past few months dealing with my terminally ill mother. I just got back from the hospital and sat down to try to dig a little deeper and realized I had never actually done a re-install before raising the issue.

I do still have a few pet peeves with the CC workflow, in that it would be nice to be able to simultaneously embed both 608 (.scc) and 708 (.mcc) like I can in media composer (media composer uses an .aaf file as it's CC source and generates both types from that file), and it would be nice if there was some kind of visual indicator on the timeline that there are captions attached to a clip or embedded in a clip without having to display the captions in the viewer. This simultaneous embedding would simply allow for both caption types to be there for whatever process or server comes next in line after I produce and deliver my files.

The Media composer workflow places the .aaf on a timeline data track and can be treated as it's own clip so that you can even cut, nudge or trim the caption data independent from the video assets. This is extremely helpful in some of the packaging I have to do that require exports with captions in different languages or others that require replacing the end credits section with a different version of the captions, so that I don't actually need two different video assets with their respective captions attached, but instead can just worry about positioning the captions by themselves.

As I said these are pet peeves. I'm not saying that the process doesn't work as it is.

[BernH]

Hello BernH

This has been a bit of an interesting education for me as I have never had to produce CC caption embedded video files.

So I took your original file and I found and downloaded CC Extractor v0.88 (free) which can extract the captions and produce several output formats including text and SRT files and there were the subtitles in your file separated out.

I then found Subtitle Edit 3.5.18 (free) into which I can load the exported video from Edius 9 (no CC text) and add the SRT file made by CC Extractor and it will play the video and display the captions as subtitles.

It sadly won't export anything except a subtitle file although in many different formats, it won't embed them in the video, but using these two apps it does however make a simple way to test the file externally to Edius.

Internally of course the SRT file can be loaded into a titler app in Edius to check they display correctly.

I have not tried exporting from Edius with CC data included yet so I will try that next.

I hope the coding team in Japan sort out your preserve ancillary data issue soon with an update to 9 and X.

Regards

Mike, (never too old to learn something new).

Mike subtitle edit can produce files used to embed captions in Edius (.scc and .mcc are used for embedding) I can go over that with you if you like, but we can tackle that in a different thread or via PM. I have already posted several threads with other people also so a little digging will find those for you.

[BernH]

Since I don't have your sample, I just tested with an MCC_HDD2997_Multistream sample I had. Ancillary data is carried through.
Are you using the settings I've listed. It could also be your file.

Jerry I seem to be unable to PM you the link to see what I mean.

as I said though, this has nothing to do with using an scc or mcc to embed captions, it is about passing them through and keeping them embedded.

[BernH]

Jerry, Mike, Pat and Steve.

let me try to explain again. This is not a problem with the closed captioning workflow, although I do have some issues there, but that’s another topic. It is a problem with the preservation of existing ancillary data in the newer versions of Edius.

I am not trying to embed closed captions in Edius. I am not trying to read the captions in Edius. I am taking an mxf op1a file that has 608 and 708 captions in it and using it as a source to make another mxf op1a file with a different audio layout and slate, simply because the recipient wantS the slate laid out in a way that includes in/out/duration of every segment and the Edius markers make this easy to do.

I have been doing this process through Edius 7, Edius 8 and Edius 9 up until a few Edius 9 updates ago.

The closed caption tracks in the source file can be identified in media info as 608 and 708 text tracks. Once passed through the newer Edius versions the captions are stripped off and those 608 and 708 tracks are not shown by media info, but older versions of Edius keep the tracks in the output file. These CC tracks are part of the ancillary data in an HD mxf file and in older Edius versions, it was preserved as long as the timeline setting had the preserve ancillary data option.

I currently have Edius 7 (last versions released) on another machine for this purpose. It is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Edius 8 (last version released) also does this perfectly. Edius 9 also did this perfectly until I updated it in the late spring/early summer.

I am not a newbie at this process. I can make it happen or not happen with an Edius version change.

To repeat this process, simply take the source file I have given you the link to, place it on a timeline and export another mxf op1a. You don’t have to try to edit anything. Just ensue the preserve ancillary data option is enabled.

compare both the source and the new file in media info. You will see that the new one is missing the 608 and 708 tracks

[GrassValley_PS]

Also, how are you viewing the CC to know it is not passed on?

[GrassValley_PS]

Bern can you send me the file? I would like some more info on this. How are your CC settings set? As I said, we have used this many times at tv stations with no problem.