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Equivalent to Grass Valley Lossless for 10bit

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  • Equivalent to Grass Valley Lossless for 10bit

    When I'm finished with a project and when I output my final file I usually use the Grass Valley Lossless codec. I've been mostly doing standard definition projects up until now and am now doing more and more 10bit HD content and noticed when I output Grass Valley Lossless it downconverts to 8bit.

    Thanks!

  • #2
    Try HQX Superfine.
    // That's almost lossless (and 10 bit).
    kurt
    Intel core i7-6700K / ASUS Z170A / 32 GB RAM / Intel HD Graphics 530 / SSD Systemdrive / Gigabyte GeForce GT 1070 / Win-10/64 Pro (V-1809) / EDIUS-9.52 (6153)-WG / Mercalli (V2, V4 and V5 Plugin/64bit) / Resolve-16.2.4 Studio / Zonealarm(Firewall etc) / ImgBurn / PowerDVD etc.
    // Read > Test > Understand

    Comment


    • #3
      or Prores 4:2:2 (can also be used by Mac users)
      Anton Strauss
      Antons Video Productions - Sydney

      EDIUS 9 WG with BM Mini Monitor 4k and BM Mini Recorder, Gigabyte X299 UD4 Pro, Intel Core i9 9960X 16 Core, 32 Threads @ 4.3Ghz, Corsair Water Cooling, Gigabyte RTX-2070 Super 3X 8GB Video Card, Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD for System, 8TB Samsung Raid0 SSD for Video, 2 Pioneer BDR-209 Blu-ray/DVD burners, Hotswap Bay for 3.5" Sata and 2.5" SSD, Phanteks Enthoo Pro XL Tower, Corsair 32GB DDR4 Ram, Win10 Pro

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by kpot View Post
        Try HQX Superfine.
        // That's almost lossless (and 10 bit).
        kurt
        Isn't Grass Valley Lossless not totally lossless either? I'm confused.

        When I go to export as HQX Superfine, there are these settings (see attached), what do I set to get the highest possible quality? Thanks!

        Attached Files

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by nostalgia View Post

          1) Isn't Grass Valley Lossless not totally lossless either? I'm confused.

          When I go to export as HQX Superfine, there are these settings (see attached), what do I set to get the highest possible quality? Thanks!
          Hi:

          ad 2) Online(SuperFine) // nothing else.

          ad 1) I will test it. // I think Anton knows this by heart :-)

          Regards kurt
          Intel core i7-6700K / ASUS Z170A / 32 GB RAM / Intel HD Graphics 530 / SSD Systemdrive / Gigabyte GeForce GT 1070 / Win-10/64 Pro (V-1809) / EDIUS-9.52 (6153)-WG / Mercalli (V2, V4 and V5 Plugin/64bit) / Resolve-16.2.4 Studio / Zonealarm(Firewall etc) / ImgBurn / PowerDVD etc.
          // Read > Test > Understand

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by kpot View Post
            ad 1) I will test it.
            Hi:
            See the attached screenshots:
            Screenshot-1: Shows the difference between the original clip and the lossless export.

            Screenshot-2: Shows the difference between the original clip and the HQX(SuperFine) export.

            Screenshot-3: Shows the difference between the HQX(SuperFine) export and the lossless export.

            Screenshot-4: Interesting is the comparison between the original clip and the uncompressed(RGBA) export version of it !! // Compare this result with screenshot-2 !!!
            // With uncompressed(UYVY) the result is "ident" with HQX(SuperFine). // "ident": using the vectorescope as the measuring-tool.

            kurt
            Attached Files
            Last edited by kpot; 07-17-2020, 12:31 PM.
            Intel core i7-6700K / ASUS Z170A / 32 GB RAM / Intel HD Graphics 530 / SSD Systemdrive / Gigabyte GeForce GT 1070 / Win-10/64 Pro (V-1809) / EDIUS-9.52 (6153)-WG / Mercalli (V2, V4 and V5 Plugin/64bit) / Resolve-16.2.4 Studio / Zonealarm(Firewall etc) / ImgBurn / PowerDVD etc.
            // Read > Test > Understand

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by kpot View Post
              Hi:
              See the attached screenshots:
              Screenshot-1: Shows the difference between the original clip and the lossless export.

              Screenshot-2: Shows the difference between the original clip and the HQX(SuperFine) export.

              Screenshot-3: Shows the difference between the HQX(SuperFine) export and the lossless export.

              Screenshot-4: Interesting is the comparison between the original clip and the uncompressed(RGBA) export version of it !! // Compare this result with screenshot-2 !!!
              // With uncompressed(UYVY) the result is "ident" with HQX(SuperFine). // "ident": using the vectorescope as the measuring-tool.

              kurt

              Thank you! Obviously it looks like Grass Valley Lossless is the way to go but it doesn't support 10bit. Also, is it 444 or 422?
              Last edited by nostalgia; 07-19-2020, 02:04 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by antonsvideo View Post
                or Prores 4:2:2 (can also be used by Mac users)
                It's looking like this might be my only option (even thought it's not lossless) as no one else can suggest otherwise.

                I would like to export Lossless 10bit 444 from the timeline, how do I do this?

                kpot are you still here?



                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by nostalgia View Post

                  It's looking like this might be my only option (even thought it's not lossless) as no one else can suggest otherwise.

                  I would like to export Lossless 10bit 444 from the timeline, how do I do this?

                  kpot are you still here?


                  it is not possible to export lossless 10bit but Prores 4:2:2 HQ or 4:4:4 is the closest thing and no human eye will see a difference between original and exported
                  Anton Strauss
                  Antons Video Productions - Sydney

                  EDIUS 9 WG with BM Mini Monitor 4k and BM Mini Recorder, Gigabyte X299 UD4 Pro, Intel Core i9 9960X 16 Core, 32 Threads @ 4.3Ghz, Corsair Water Cooling, Gigabyte RTX-2070 Super 3X 8GB Video Card, Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD for System, 8TB Samsung Raid0 SSD for Video, 2 Pioneer BDR-209 Blu-ray/DVD burners, Hotswap Bay for 3.5" Sata and 2.5" SSD, Phanteks Enthoo Pro XL Tower, Corsair 32GB DDR4 Ram, Win10 Pro

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by antonsvideo View Post

                    it is not possible to export lossless 10bit but Prores 4:2:2 HQ or 4:4:4 is the closest thing and no human eye will see a difference between original and exported
                    Any comment between Prores and HQX of Edius ?
                    Yvon durieux alias "Haddock" Belgium GMT + 2

                    Sorry for my poor english, I am french native speaking

                    Main System: Azus Z87 Pro, [email protected], 16gb ram, Nvidia GeForce GT 630, Windows 7 Pro 64, Samsung 840 pro, Edius 8.53.2808 WG and 9.40.4896 + NXexpress or HDspark, 2T separate video SSD.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Personally I think that HQX is a little better than ProRes in the the 4:2:2 variants, especially with the ability to actually adjust the compression with the controls in the codec settings, and better "multi generation" loss performance. HQX does not have a 4:4:4 variant, and it can't support higher than 10bit, so this is where ProRes wins. HQX does have Alpha support in the 4:2:2 market which is a nice feature that the others don't have until getting into the 4:4:4:4 variants.

                      As mentioned by Anton, ProRes is a more universally usable codec, with native playback support in Mac, Windows, and many Linux builds. HQX requires codec installation on a Mac, but the codec pack for it is a QuickTime 7 pack, and Apple has dropped QuickTime 7 on OSX several years ago, so playback in newer OS versions is not as easy or as good, and likely only available via VLC.

                      The HQX whitepaper has a lot of good info on the codec and comparisons to others.
                      https://www.grassvalley.com/docs/Whi..._Intro_HQX.pdf

                      Please see the attached chart for the main differences

                      codecs.PNG
                      Last edited by BernH; 07-24-2020, 01:35 PM.
                      Edius WG 9.52.6153, various 3rd party plugins, VisTitle 2.8.0.5, Win 7 Ultimate SP1, i7-4790K @ 4GHz with HD4600 GPU embedded, MSI Z97 Gaming 7 Motherboard, 32GB Kingston HyperX RAM, nVidia GTX680 4GB GPU, Matrox MX02 Mini MAX, Corsair 750W PSU, Corsair H110i GT Water Cooler, Corsair C70 case, 4TB Internal RAID 0/stripe (2x2TB Seagate SATAIII HDD's, Win7 Software RAID 0/stripe), 1TB Crucial MX500 SSD, Pioneer BDR-207D, Dual 1920x1080 monitors (one on GTX680 and one on Intel HD4600).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks Bern for these complete answer. I knew this chart and was optimist with HQX. I have search the white pages in French to beter understanding but did not found it.

                        One question again. In a complex editing timeline I made the first export in HQX. I put the result on a V track above all others so that Edius can only see the above track. When a correction is necessary, I first cut the zone of the correction of the HQX file... so Edius can see again only this zone wich has to be modified. After correction done, I export the complete Timeline again in HQX. For Edius no calculation in the parts when it sees the HQX file and only recalculation in the modified section. What appends in this case ?
                        1) Edius decompress/recompress the HQX zone (with a vey light degradation, second generation) OR
                        2) Edius only duplicate the HQX zone (without any modification) and only add a new section in the HQX file where the corrected zone is... ?

                        The second option should of course be better ...for me especially for very long films of 1H20'.

                        Thanks again for yours info.
                        Yvon durieux alias "Haddock" Belgium GMT + 2

                        Sorry for my poor english, I am french native speaking

                        Main System: Azus Z87 Pro, [email protected], 16gb ram, Nvidia GeForce GT 630, Windows 7 Pro 64, Samsung 840 pro, Edius 8.53.2808 WG and 9.40.4896 + NXexpress or HDspark, 2T separate video SSD.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Haddock View Post
                          Thanks Bern for these complete answer. I knew this chart and was optimist with HQX. I have search the white pages in French to beter understanding but did not found it.

                          One question again. In a complex editing timeline I made the first export in HQX. I put the result on a V track above all others so that Edius can only see the above track. When a correction is necessary, I first cut the zone of the correction of the HQX file... so Edius can see again only this zone wich has to be modified. After correction done, I export the complete Timeline again in HQX. For Edius no calculation in the parts when it sees the HQX file and only recalculation in the modified section. What appends in this case ?
                          1) Edius decompress/recompress the HQX zone (with a vey light degradation, second generation) OR
                          2) Edius only duplicate the HQX zone (without any modification) and only add a new section in the HQX file where the corrected zone is... ?

                          The second option should of course be better ...for me especially for very long films of 1H20'.

                          Thanks again for yours info.
                          Yvon, I often do a similar approach when working on a complicated timeline, however I don't export to HQX, I set my project render codec in the project settings to HQX or ProRes, mark an in and out on the timeline, and use a Shift-Q render on the timeline as I finalize sections. This makes a new video file and automatically places it on the timeline above that section. If I need to fix something in the render, I simply cut that section out to reveal the underlying clips, make the fix and generate a new render fix file for that section. This way there isn't even the mild generational loss that you refer to. If I recall correctly, older versions of Edius would still try to read lower layers of the timeline even if you are not seeing them, so I have also gotten into the habit of muting the lower clips with the "0" key when there is a rendered section above them. This way the system is only reading one layer in sections that are finished, and I also have a very clear visual indication of what is finished, which can be handy when a project goes on for weeks or even months. The single rendered layer also exports a lot faster when i am ready to export.

                          I also make a "rendered" bin in the project and drag theses rendered files from the timeline into it so I can rename them and as an easy way to retrieve them if I accidentally delete one from the timeline, but this also allows me to easily right click on one of them and "delete from disk" if I want to completely remove it from my system without having to open windows explorer.
                          Edius WG 9.52.6153, various 3rd party plugins, VisTitle 2.8.0.5, Win 7 Ultimate SP1, i7-4790K @ 4GHz with HD4600 GPU embedded, MSI Z97 Gaming 7 Motherboard, 32GB Kingston HyperX RAM, nVidia GTX680 4GB GPU, Matrox MX02 Mini MAX, Corsair 750W PSU, Corsair H110i GT Water Cooler, Corsair C70 case, 4TB Internal RAID 0/stripe (2x2TB Seagate SATAIII HDD's, Win7 Software RAID 0/stripe), 1TB Crucial MX500 SSD, Pioneer BDR-207D, Dual 1920x1080 monitors (one on GTX680 and one on Intel HD4600).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BernH View Post
                            I recall correctly, older versions of Edius would still try to read lower layers of the timeline even if you are not seeing them, so I have also gotten into the habit of muting the lower clips with the "0" key when there is a rendered section above them.
                            That was just a bug in an old version. It was corrected pretty quickly.
                            Main System: i7 6950X OC to 4.5GHz, ASUS RAMPAGE V EDITION 10, Corsair Dominator Platinum 64GB DDR4 2800, SAMSUNG 950 PRO M.2 512GB , GeForce GTX 1080ti SC Black, Corsair AX1200i PS, Phanteks Luxe Case, 16TB RAID (4)HGST Deskstar NAS 4TB, Corsair H115i CPU Cooler, AJA Kona 4, BMD Intensity Pro 4K, Win 10

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GrassValley_PS View Post

                              That was just a bug in an old version. It was corrected pretty quickly.
                              Thanks Pat, good to know. I just never skipped that step in newer versions so I never noticed.
                              Edius WG 9.52.6153, various 3rd party plugins, VisTitle 2.8.0.5, Win 7 Ultimate SP1, i7-4790K @ 4GHz with HD4600 GPU embedded, MSI Z97 Gaming 7 Motherboard, 32GB Kingston HyperX RAM, nVidia GTX680 4GB GPU, Matrox MX02 Mini MAX, Corsair 750W PSU, Corsair H110i GT Water Cooler, Corsair C70 case, 4TB Internal RAID 0/stripe (2x2TB Seagate SATAIII HDD's, Win7 Software RAID 0/stripe), 1TB Crucial MX500 SSD, Pioneer BDR-207D, Dual 1920x1080 monitors (one on GTX680 and one on Intel HD4600).

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