HD/SD artifact solution?

[AndyW69]

I don't know if this helps but this was the same with edius prior to 4.5 using the XDCAM HD cameras, now resolver with excellent downconversion directly on the timeline.

It might suggest edius needs tweaking, it might suggest an upgrade to the firmware of my cameras coinsided with an edius update

Andy

[DigitalDave]

For those who have not seen it, check out Mark Stuart's extensive solution here http://ediusforum.grassvalley.com/fo...1906#post31906

[Khoi Pham]

I just want to add that the problem that Ronnie is talking about is not jaggies as we are used to seeing them. HI sis more of a zebra type showing that happens with any linear formation. His test clip has a wire mesh type shelving unit that shimmers badly when zoooming or panning at all. It is unuable.

What seems to be happneing to me is that this problem is just now surfacing to the mainstream because the EX is the first affordable camera that shoots true HD with the 1/2" chips. The superior sharness of detail causes this shimmering when there is any kind of movement in straight lines when downlconverting to SD.

I don't know Pat, I saw the artifacts even in HD, so it's just intensify when going down to SD with Edius, I still think turning sharpness to off or any kind of detail enhancer to off should help, there is no need for sharpness adjustment.

[pjsssss]

I just want to add that the problem that Ronnie is talking about is not jaggies as we are used to seeing them. HI sis more of a zebra type showing that happens with any linear formation. His test clip has a wire mesh type shelving unit that shimmers badly when zoooming or panning at all. It is unuable.

What seems to be happneing to me is that this problem is just now surfacing to the mainstream because the EX is the first affordable camera that shoots true HD with the 1/2" chips. The superior sharness of detail causes this shimmering when there is any kind of movement in straight lines when downlconverting to SD.

[RonnieMartin]

Hey Ronnie,
Looking again at your post, I have an important question. Are you burning a dvd directly off the timeline or are you encoding a file through procoder to be processed through another dvd authoring software?

When I first read your post, I assumed you were burning directly off the timeline. Most of the responses, however, seemed to deal with Procoder 3.

I've been burning my SD DVDs directly from the Edius timeline with no jaggies.

No I have been encoding with PCE or Procoder. However, the twittering shows up when you change the settings in Edius from HDV 1440x1080 to 720x480.
Not much use in going futher if the clip is so bad at this point.

Actually, you can see some of the artifact when playing in the HDV mode but not enough to make the clip unusable.

I will try Marks suggestion now posted on the Procoder forum at night to see what happens. If it works on these clips it should really help on other footage.

We are fortunate to have such helpful people on this forum. I have sent the clips to Australia, Spain, and to several in the US. So far there is not much improvement. I have not sent the clip to the UK and if I had Marks address I would be glad to mail it to him.

Thanks for your post and concern.

We will keep tinkering until we lick the problem.

Ronnie

[iibw]

Hey Ronnie,
Looking again at your post, I have an important question. Are you burning a dvd directly off the timeline or are you encoding a file through procoder to be processed through another dvd authoring software?

When I first read your post, I assumed you were burning directly off the timeline. Most of the responses, however, seemed to deal with Procoder 3.

I've been burning my SD DVDs directly from the Edius timeline with no jaggies.

[RonnieMartin]

I spent about an hour with a Sony Tech yesterday. I actually talked to a real human and the wait was only a few minutes. He listened intently, was very nice and understanding. He told me that he would pass the information that I gave him up the food chain.

He also said that Sony was aware of the problem and that they were working on it. So at least someone is trying to find a solution from the camera standpoint.

I explained that in my opinion, turning off the detail when acquiring the footage defeats the idea of shooting in HD so that we will have the HD footage to use later in a HD project.

I go off this weekend for another race and I am reluctant to take the EX. The same problem exists with the ZU1 but not quite as bad.

I may be shooting with the ZU1 as the main camera and the EX as the B roll.

Ronnie

[majormauser]

I read some of the posts but is this the same thing as when I have moving TITLE CRAWLS that are all interlaced as they move?

Tried encode in Progressive... which was no help.

My Project is DV (SD)

[Jerry]

I must also add that the most successful down convertion I have seen, is through the EX1 itself. Playing back the 1920x1080 50i files or 1440x1880 50i or 720 50p produce really fine SD images when viewed thru the component SD out from the camera, even with the detail set up at factory. So this is hardware downconvertion, and it looks great.

So, once you have your 1440x1080 50i/60i project ready, produce an m2t file in edius and then output to the Ex1 SXS card. So far so good. Now comes the tricky bit, the only SD output from the EX1 is via component or composite. Composite is just too horrid to contemplate, so you need to capture the file through component SD, not possible with the NX card, or a Storm 2, so does someone make a cheap component to firewire unit with sync audio and t/code ?? or do we buy another capture card altogether.

What a shame the EX1 will not output SD downconvert thru its firewire - or am I wrong here?

Paul

The Decklink Intensity Pro, in the $320's. Has HDMI and analog uncompressed or MJPEG 1920x1080, 720x480, 8bit 4:2:2 capture.
This might smooth those sharp edges out considerably. It would be worth a try.
If someone in Orlando has this Camera, I would be willing to give a shot with my Intensity Pro.

[xmanflash]

One solution that works is to apply a rotation to the image. An angle of 2 degrees leaves a clean image, but, now you have a rotated image.

Slight rotation incurrs slight blurring in my experience, so that makes sense.. Although having to shoot everything at -2 degrees might be problamatic when they get this problem fixed :-)

[cuervo]

One solution that works is to apply a rotation to the image. An angle of 2 degrees leaves a clean image, but, now you have a rotated image.

[Khoi Pham]

It looks like I need to talk with the Sony tech guys in NJ. I called them several months ago about another problem but have since lost their number.

I will get on it and report back.

Maybe I'm wrong but turning the detail off or way down seems to me to defeat the purpose of having a HD camera in the first place. We have been told two things that bother me.

1. better SD from down converting from HD
2. future proof your footage to use later in HD projects.

Had I known this I would have never bought the "move to HD" at this time.

Thanks for all your hard work folks. We need to stay after this problem and get it licked.

It is not like me to post in a negative manner and I in no way want to cast any dis respect to Edius/GV...

Just frustrates me when I screw up.

Ronnie

I don't have EX-1 but detail in that camera could be edge enhancement, edge enhancement adds contrast and halo around the edge, therefore intensify flickering, detail enhancement should be off.

[cuervo]

I'm pretty sure even the softest HD is sharper than the best SD. As for downconverted footage, I think it's still sharper. It just has that twitter problem.

[RonnieMartin]

It looks like I need to talk with the Sony tech guys in NJ. I called them several months ago about another problem but have since lost their number.

I will get on it and report back.

Maybe I'm wrong but turning the detail off or way down seems to me to defeat the purpose of having a HD camera in the first place. We have been told two things that bother me.

1. better SD from down converting from HD
2. future proof your footage to use later in HD projects.

Had I known this I would have never bought the "move to HD" at this time.

Thanks for all your hard work folks. We need to stay after this problem and get it licked.

It is not like me to post in a negative manner and I in no way want to cast any dis respect to Edius/GV...

Just frustrates me when I screw up.

Ronnie

[PaulTV]

I must also add that the most successful down convertion I have seen, is through the EX1 itself. Playing back the 1920x1080 50i files or 1440x1880 50i or 720 50p produce really fine SD images when viewed thru the component SD out from the camera, even with the detail set up at factory. So this is hardware downconvertion, and it looks great.

So, once you have your 1440x1080 50i/60i project ready, produce an m2t file in edius and then output to the Ex1 SXS card. So far so good. Now comes the tricky bit, the only SD output from the EX1 is via component or composite. Composite is just too horrid to contemplate, so you need to capture the file through component SD, not possible with the NX card, or a Storm 2, so does someone make a cheap component to firewire unit with sync audio and t/code ?? or do we buy another capture card altogether.

What a shame the EX1 will not output SD downconvert thru its firewire - or am I wrong here?

Paul