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  • The HD/SD discussion ..........

    Good morning all. There have been many posts over the past couple of weeks concerning the conversion or integration of HD material in an SD timeline, and conversion of an HD timeline to an SD DVD. There have been multiple fine solutions proposed and outlined by many of you experienced and knowledgeable film-makers. During the past weeks I have tried them all, and have discovered a solution that I feel delivers the highest quality conversions/transformations/DVD's of them all. It's been mentioned before, but I'm not sure than many have tried it, and I want to spread the good word for all interested in seamless and non-destructive results.

    For the EDIUS user, this is one of the finest programs I've seen or used as a "partner product".

    VirtualDub is a FREE program available at www.virtualdub.org. With this program I have imported HD files and with the "resize" filter have succeeded in two areas of conversion that beats the quality of any ProCoder conversions "hands down". I projected all this experimentation onto a 14 foot screen, and between the "before and after" shots have witnessed very little, if any, destruction of the original quality of the clip - and at NO TIME have I seen any down-conversion artifacts - which I have seen in almost all other conversion methods. I resized 1440x1080 16x9 to 720x480 letterbox - quality of the resize is indistinquishable from other footage originally shot in SD of the same subject. Then I pulled the "ultimate" test, and resized 1440x1080 16x9 to 720x480 3x4 - losing a little on each side to fit the frame - and again, the results were so close that only side-by-side comparisons could see any difference (NO ARTIFACTS - only perhaps a slight increase in "grain") between a similar scene shot in SD, and the down-conversion of the HD. If anything, at times the downconversion looked "sharper".

    Then I outputed the VirtualDub revision to an .avi file, reinserted into the EDIUS timeline, and the resulting SD timeline (if that's what you're editing in) is seamless in quality.

    I have also taken the HD timeline straight to DVD (which many of you have suggested) and then compared that DVD with a DVD made from an SD timeline after resizing the entire timeline down to SD from HD (with the VirtualDub program - does take a little time), and the one really BIG difference, the downconverted timeline results in a more "artifacts-free" DVD.

    Since it's a free program, I urge those of you who might benefit from trying it - to at least give it a go! It's perfect adjunct to our beloved EDIUS NLE. No, I don't own any part of the company who makes this product! I have only benefited from using it and making my life not only easier, but more rewarding. If anyone has a problem with some of the settings to get to the results above, let me know and I'll post them!

    Good luck - and enjoy!
    Alan
    Alan J. Levi
    Director

    SYSTEM: ASUS P8Z77-VPro mobo, Intel 3770K CPU, 16 Gig Crucial 1866 RAM, Antec 1000W PS, EVGA nVidia 560Ti 1Gig Video, CoolerMaster CPU cooler, LG GGW-H20L BluRay DVD, SPARK card w/23" Samsung 1920x1080 Monitor, OCZ 240GB SSD boot in Swapable Tray & 3 WD Enterprise 1TB video RAID 5 HDD's. 4.5TB RAID 1 Outboard backups, Behringer2000 Audio Fader/Controller

  • #2
    Yes it is better, I have done it before, but with extra time and effort, but the point is trying to get GV to make it right in the first place, I have been trying to get them to fix it for the last 2 years but they don't really care, put a real bad taste in my mouth, a free program and a cheap $99.00 Tsunami encoder can even do better, if you can search back on the other forum you should see my post about HDV timeline to SD a lonnnnnggg time ago, last time I heard is that they are looking into it, yeah.
    I7-6900K, X99 Taichi, Geforce GTX 1070, Corsair RM850X, Corsair H100 IV2, Windows 10, Edius WG 9.30

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    • #3
      So I have bought PC3 for this reason - I am half way through my first serious HDV project and The client will want SD dvd..........

      I was under the impression that PC3 will handle the HDV 1440 X 1080i project and encode to my SD 16:9 Mpeg 2 Elementary Stream with Wave audio for SD DVD authoring....Direct from the EDIUS time line??? or I can encode AC-3 if I need it instead of letting the authoring app do the WAVE to AC-3 conversion.

      This is not the case or what?

      Are there issues with this process?

      Cath
      Asus P5K64WS, Intel Core 2 Quad QX6850 Extreme CPU, Saphire HD 3850 512mb graphics, WDraptor160 OS, Highpoint Rocket raid 2310 4 x 500gig Seagate sata 2 se drives in raid 0, NXe and Edius 5.51 Imaginate 2.
      Procoder 3.06 and various Prodad add-ons

      Comment


      • #4
        It will do that but with alot of stais steps aritfact, the quickest way with acceptable result is when finish editing, switch your project to SD, resave all your titles then encode, or if you want a little better result, output timeline to a single HQ file, use virtual dub to resize and frameserve or Tsunami encodeder.
        I7-6900K, X99 Taichi, Geforce GTX 1070, Corsair RM850X, Corsair H100 IV2, Windows 10, Edius WG 9.30

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        • #5
          This is quite important as delivering in HD is still at the beginning stage.

          A bulletproof SD DVD delivery method is at the heart of people being able to make the jump to HD.

          I am disturbed by your experiences as sombody who is on the cusp of an HD upgrade.
          Asus Prime X299-A - Intel i9 7900x all cores @4.3GHz 2 cores @4.5GHz - 32GB RAM - NVidia GTX1070 - Edius 9 WG - BM Intensity 4k - Boris RED - Vitascene 2 - Windows 10

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          • #6
            This is good Alan I will try it
            I tried Tsunami as Khoi suggested and it is brilliant for making DVD video without artifacts using Khoi's instructions, but for me it was not possible to use it to convert to SD 4:3 as it does not support SD AVI (Incorrect field order) and I could not find a way to crop correctly, maybe it was just me, so I had to look back at Procoder
            Still Looking for alternatives that also support cropping to 4:3 and SD AVI, so far Procoder has been the best but with many filters added.
            Media Studio Pro 7 and its MPEG encoder gives no artifacts BUT the video is not as sharp so there is another one that may be of use to someone, be aware this takes for ever and uses only 2 cores 10 hours to encode 1 hour slooow
            I have just added this I have looked back at some earlier DVD's and 4:3 AVI's and this seems to have become progressively worse with 4.54 and now more so with 4.6 Before I use to export straight from the timeline, interestingly taking the HQ AVI into Procoder is no different, has the HQ encoder been changed for the "Better"?
            There is one other factor in here I changed cameras around the same time to ones that are much sharper! so maybe this is the problem?
            Regards Barry
            Last edited by Bluetongue; 03-02-2008, 12:04 AM.
            Win 10HP, EDIUS WG9.4, HD Spark, Boris RED 5, VMW6, Authorworks 6, Bluff Titler, VisTitler 2.8, NEAT 3/4, Mercalli 2/4, Vitascene, Izotope RX6 Plugin, NewBlue, Trend Micro AV
            GB GA-X58A-UD3R MB, i7 [email protected], 12G 1600mhz Mem, Samsung EVO-250G SSD, 3x2T RAID, GTX 970W OC, 2x24 inch LG Monitors
            Canon XH-A1/ Canon HF-G30, GoPro Hero3 Black, Edit @1920 50p HQ preset

            https://vimeo.com/user2157719/videos
            Laptop ASUS G752VT-GC060T Win 10HP, Edius WG8.53 Samsung M2 SSD 256G+1Tb HD,

            Comment


            • #7
              Virtual dub works extremely well BUT first what causes the problem
              It seems to be caused by interlacing
              In virtual dub the filters work sequentially so adding a de interlace filter first completely eliminates the problem on the Horizontal lines but brings in minor ones on the vertical lines almost non detectable, the best de interlace is the "Blend" but of course it leaves the two slightly displaced fields
              IF the output is in "Progressive" the problem is not there but "Interlace" the output and it immediately returns!
              The other problem I have with this program is that it only saves in AVI but most of us require MPEG for DVD as well and so far a DVD Direct from HDV through Procoder (with the appropriate filters) is better than one made from the AVI from Virtual dub
              I have looked at Procoder and using the de interlace filter but no change and if I read the handbook carefully Procoder de interlaces automatically when down sizing.
              Hope this helps, it will certainly add to the arguments and discussion
              Regards Barry
              Win 10HP, EDIUS WG9.4, HD Spark, Boris RED 5, VMW6, Authorworks 6, Bluff Titler, VisTitler 2.8, NEAT 3/4, Mercalli 2/4, Vitascene, Izotope RX6 Plugin, NewBlue, Trend Micro AV
              GB GA-X58A-UD3R MB, i7 [email protected], 12G 1600mhz Mem, Samsung EVO-250G SSD, 3x2T RAID, GTX 970W OC, 2x24 inch LG Monitors
              Canon XH-A1/ Canon HF-G30, GoPro Hero3 Black, Edit @1920 50p HQ preset

              https://vimeo.com/user2157719/videos
              Laptop ASUS G752VT-GC060T Win 10HP, Edius WG8.53 Samsung M2 SSD 256G+1Tb HD,

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Khoi Pham View Post
                Yes it is better, I have done it before, but with extra time and effort, but the point is trying to get GV to make it right in the first place, I have been trying to get them to fix it for the last 2 years but they don't really care, put a real bad taste in my mouth, a free program and a cheap $99.00 Tsunami encoder can even do better, if you can search back on the other forum you should see my post about HDV timeline to SD a lonnnnnggg time ago, last time I heard is that they are looking into it, yeah.
                Khoi,
                Are you converting from a 1.3333 aspect or a square pixel. My conversions with using a straight square pixel as opposed to the 1.3 are pretty much free of stair steps. You have the obligatory ones that I think will be there no matter what. However, for the greater part, I get a very clean conversion from an uncompressed 1920x1080 file going to MPEG 2 7500 dual pass vbr,with the 709-601 filter added.
                I have downloaded the TMPGE 4.0 express trial and at this time trying the same conversion. The trial did not offer the 709-601 conversion. But, I did read that there is a color phase filter.
                Jerry
                Six Gill DV
                www.sgdvtutorials.com
                If you own the Tutorials and you need help, PM me.

                Vistitle YouTube Channel
                https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMVlxC8Am4qFbkXJRoPAnMQ/videos

                Windows 10 Pro up to v.1803 Tweaks for Edius Users
                http://sgdvtutorials.com/WIN%2010%20...%20V.2.0.0.pdf


                Main System:: Azrock Z97 Extreme 6, [email protected], 32gb ram, Corsair H110, Win10 Pro 64, Samsung 850 pro, E7.5/8.5/E9 on separate SSD drives, HD Spark, Intensity Shuttle, 12tb RAID 0 on backplane ,2 BD, Benq 27 and Hanns-G 28 monitors, CC 2019, GTX 1080ti SC Black.
                Second System: EditHD Ultimax-i7, X58, [email protected], Corsair H80, Win764, 24gb ram, Storm 3g, Samsung 840 Pro 256, 4tb and 6tb RAID 0 on backplane, GTX 980ti Classified, Edius 9, Apple 30", Samsung 24", dual BD.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jerry View Post
                  Khoi,
                  Are you converting from a 1.3333 aspect or a square pixel. My conversions with using a straight square pixel as opposed to the 1.3 are pretty much free of stair steps. You have the obligatory ones that I think will be there no matter what. However, for the greater part, I get a very clean conversion from an uncompressed 1920x1080 file going to MPEG 2 7500 dual pass vbr,with the 709-601 filter added.
                  I have downloaded the TMPGE 4.0 express trial and at this time trying the same conversion. The trial did not offer the 709-601 conversion. But, I did read that there is a color phase filter.
                  I'm converting from 1440X1080, but I did try switching the project to 1920X1080 then outputing an HQ AVI and converting but still see the same stairs step, I will try to capturing as 1920X1080 next time.
                  Thanks.
                  I7-6900K, X99 Taichi, Geforce GTX 1070, Corsair RM850X, Corsair H100 IV2, Windows 10, Edius WG 9.30

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Khoi Pham View Post
                    I'm converting from 1440X1080, but I did try switching the project to 1920X1080 then outputing an HQ AVI and converting but still see the same stairs step, I will try to capturing as 1920X1080 next time.
                    Thanks.
                    When you try your test, try the HQ and an uncompressed file at 1920x1080 and do the conversion. Compare the two. I have just gotten used to exporting to uncompressed due to using the files in Encore.

                    I burnt a disk with the tsunami trial. I guess each encoder has its strong points. I felt the image was a little softer than from my PC3 version. Both produced the same problem with a scene that has the fronts of two window unit air conditionars. As the picture zooms, both flicker the same amount.
                    Both had the same 'stairstep' problem on a wooden deck as talent walked across and a slow zoom out. For $99 I will more than likely pick it up.
                    It did seem faster on the quad machine as a single encode. Procoder 3 is faster with multiple encodes.
                    Jerry
                    Six Gill DV
                    www.sgdvtutorials.com
                    If you own the Tutorials and you need help, PM me.

                    Vistitle YouTube Channel
                    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMVlxC8Am4qFbkXJRoPAnMQ/videos

                    Windows 10 Pro up to v.1803 Tweaks for Edius Users
                    http://sgdvtutorials.com/WIN%2010%20...%20V.2.0.0.pdf


                    Main System:: Azrock Z97 Extreme 6, [email protected], 32gb ram, Corsair H110, Win10 Pro 64, Samsung 850 pro, E7.5/8.5/E9 on separate SSD drives, HD Spark, Intensity Shuttle, 12tb RAID 0 on backplane ,2 BD, Benq 27 and Hanns-G 28 monitors, CC 2019, GTX 1080ti SC Black.
                    Second System: EditHD Ultimax-i7, X58, [email protected], Corsair H80, Win764, 24gb ram, Storm 3g, Samsung 840 Pro 256, 4tb and 6tb RAID 0 on backplane, GTX 980ti Classified, Edius 9, Apple 30", Samsung 24", dual BD.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I had tried the OP's method quite some time ago. I found it did get rid of some artifacts and "steps", but the picture was softer than my normal workflow. See this thread from the Procoder forum.
                      Windows 10 Pro. Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming mainboard, Intel i7-8700K processor, 32GB DDR4 3200MHz RAM, Radeon R9 270 2GB DDR5 Graphics.
                      Samsung SSD Drives for system and mixture of SSD and 7200 SATA for video storage.

                      Edius 9.50. Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4k
                      Dublin, Ireland. PAL.

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                      • #12
                        I agree with the original post in this thread. Virtualdub resizes/downconverts better than any other method I've tried. However any output I make, when placed on an Edius timeline to examine on monitor, the field order defaults at bottom first and 4:3 aspect. Changing in edius clip properties to top field first and 16:9 fixes and the SD file plays 100% perfect, no artefacts, scaling or interlace problems. I've tried the field swap filter in Virtualdub but it doesnt have the desired effect. I would prefer virtualdub create files that will play perfect standalone. Can anyone shed any light?

                        Also, I cannot get outputting by framserving to work. I can start the frame server but have tried opening the .avi in Procoder and windows media player and it fails to open.

                        Anyone experienced with virtualdub? care to share your settings and worklow?

                        Thanks
                        Mark
                        Last edited by msvideo; 03-06-2008, 07:51 PM. Reason: typo
                        Mark Stuart
                        www.ms-films.co.uk
                        www.ms-media.co.uk

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