HD to SD downconversion BUT EDGE CROP!!!

[g_dagostini]

Hi,

I´ve been around ALL the topics about the techniques and results to
donwconvert HD video to SD using Edius or Pro Coder Express. I think all of them work, despite of the quality difference between one and another.
As I´m going to use EDIUS BROADCAST for editing HD video in a broadcast station my problem is a little bit different!!! The video comes from the street in XDCam HD (35Mbps) and are MXF files TRANSFERED to the NLEs via FTP using Sony PDW-F30. Editing goes in [email protected] project and then I need to EXPORT a file to use in my playout server.
I need a final video that is SD 4:3, not 16:9 as almost all the suggested techniques results. Switching my project setting to SD would be
impracticable because I would have donzens of clips to adjust the apect by
height in the layout window, one by one! I think the ideal would be doing
this to all clips at the same time!

Does anyone know a turnaround that is not exporting the project to
a HD file, importing it in a SD project, adjusting the aspect by height and then exporting to SD??? This is a timeconsumig operation and we don´t have
all this time in broadcast station.

Thanks

[SRsupport]

What do you want out 4:3 -> 16:9 leterboxed or 4:3-> 16:9 center cut?

When we know that we can help you better.

[Bluetongue]

I do this regularly for my local Community TV station
You will need Procoder 3 to be able to do this as there are no filters available in PC Express, any cropping once you take it into SD will degrade the footage as you will have less pixels so it all has to be done before placing in the timeline
1: With your files in HQ HD format 1440 x 1080 or export from the timeline in HQ HD at 1440 x 1080
2: Import into Procoder (Not from Edius Time line)
3: Click advanced button and select "Video Filters" add "Circular Blur" with a setting of 0.4
3a: If you need to crop to 4:3 use the "Relative crop" making sure the (Left + Right offset) add up to 360, Make sure "Scale after crop is selected" (This takes the center or near center from the clip to full screen 4:3) If you want letterbox don't add the crop filter and it will automatically letter box the video
4: Select your target under DV<>AVI "AVI Microsoft DV-AVI"
5: Click advanced button add the following Video filters
6: Colour space conversion 709 to 601
7: Sharpen filter with the following settings
7a: Radius of Blur = 2.00
7b: Amount of blend = .25
7c: Threshold = 2.75
To allow small increments to be adjusted on the setting use the mouse wheel
These settings will eliminated all the artifacts on the horizontal lines (Looks like a ZEBRA pattern)
In fact the SD AVI's look sharper than down loading from the camera using the on camera SD converter or from an SD 4:3 DV camera
If you do not have Procoder it is available as an upgrade if you have edius, saves a bit of money and is well worth the cost
Hope this is of help
Regards Barry

[Andy]

What do you want out 4:3 -> 16:9 leterboxed or 4:3-> 16:9 center cut?

When we know that we can help you better.

EDGE CROP and CENTER CUT are the same thing
in this case he's asking for 16:9 -> 4:3 using EDGE CROP

[SRsupport]

That was honestly the first time I heard that term we here use center cut.

Ok very simple then
Edit in HD
put in out over your piece
shft + Q
switch project to sd
double click the shft + q file to make it active
press f7
fit height.

Works as a charm.

In 1% of shots there could be a slight jitter/twitter.
Use anti flicker at 10 (on those shots) and the problem will go away in sd. ( you have to do this in the HD project)

I use a broadcast monitor to view the results.

I have used 2 very difficult clip to find our recipe.

On the canopus demo dvd
clip_07 clip_08
You have:
Flowing water from the "waterfall"
that bamboo wall with cross pattern
horizontal lines on the flower/plant thing (don't know what it is called in English)
water in the pool and a moving object.

shot 2 shingles on the roof
Flowing water and that water from the waterfall.

It looks crisp here on the broadcast monitor. ( via component)

I used the demo footage so you can see what I am seeing.
Lest hope this works for you.

We used this for a few clients they where happy and it passed the technical check of the station.
Steve

[Bluetongue]

In 1% of shots there could be a slight jitter/twitter.
Use anti flicker at 10 (on those shots) and the problem will go away in sd. ( you have to do this in the HD project)

Steve

Steve thanks for that it could save a lot of time and effort
Regards Barry

[SRsupport]

Lets hope it works for you . Maybe you can try it on some of your Problematic footage and tells us how the out come is.

Steve

[Bluetongue]

Steve
Tried that it just softens the image but does not eliminate the zebra effect
Interesting observation I was pointed to a free program called "Virtual dub" which is able to eliminate the problem and maintain the sharpness to better than I have been able to achieve so far and one very interesting observation.
The problem seems to be caused by interlacing
If you set Virtual dub to interlace the output it does not fix the problem (Default is Progressive O/P) but
if you Deinterlace the file in Virtual dub first and then set the output to interlace the output the problem is not there, must be the downsizing with interlacing and that makes sense now as the only clips that have problems are those with movement, the less movement the better the downsize!
I must have a look at all the filters in Procoder again to see if this is available and if so how the output compares
Regards Barry

[SRsupport]

What is the source footage exactly?

Second is it possible for you to use the same emo clips and see what the result are on your monitor? (if you have time)

I want to have some info in this.
Because I am not (yet) seeing zebra when doing this to hdv I(interlaced) footage. I know a lot of people have problems with this. Hope you can give me some feedback.

He wait a minute you are using pal right?
Let me see if this the setting hold up for pal footage.....

Thanks,

Steve

[Bluetongue]

What is the source footage exactly?

Second is it possible for you to use the same emo clips and see what the result are on your monitor? (if you have time)

I want to have some info in this.
Because I am not (yet) seeing zebra when doing this to hdv I(interlaced) footage. I know a lot of people have problems with this. Hope you can give me some feedback.

He wait a minute you are using pal right?
Let me see if this the setting hold up for pal footage.....

Thanks,

Steve

Source footage is HDV 1440x1080i PAL

If the project is changed from HDV to SD the problem can be seen in the Edius monitor screen, like a zebra pattern running along the line
I use my monitor screen so it takes up the full 22" LHS monitor, makes it easier not having an NX card. The problem is carried through to a DVD or SD DV tape.

The only time this problem occurs is if there is movement and horizontal to near horizontal lines and the footage is downsized to DVD or SD DV. There is no problems if everything is kept in HDV

I am now sure it is in the downsizing and the Jaggies inside a frame associated with interlaced video and it would seem as though to downsize, the frame is de interlaced before the down sizing occurs or that is what I get from the Procoder manual, it doesn't spell it out very well

I tried to attach a couple of images but failed wanted a URL and I dont have one


Regards Barry

[g_dagostini]

SRSupport

(first of all what I need is SIDE CUT, that is the same as EDGE CROP)

The workflow you suggested works great, but the problem is having two renders, because this wastes A LOT of time. I´m dealing with news broadcasting so 3 or 4 minutes is MUCH MUCH TIME. Sometimes our editors have 30 minutes for ingesting, editing and exporting a 5 minutes video.
My last try was:
- switch the project to SD
- create a new sequence
- place the first sequence (with my HD material) as a clip in the second one and
- altering the layout

But when you´re dealing with a sequence layout the properties get stuck. I can´t use the FIT HEIGHT option, for example. Anyone???

Thanks

[SRsupport]

No layout does not work on sequences.
That is why I suggested that work flow. ( we use that here)

The shift q of a 2.45 min segment (news) takes 10 to 14 seconds. That is 2 sips of your coffee when its hot. :)
I'll try 5 min to see how long it takes.

edit: I just did it is 40 seconds here. Is that not fast enough?


Steve

[g_dagostini]

SRsupport

I did the Shift+Q render and it took me 3 minutes and 27 seconds for a sequence EXACTLY 5 minutes long!!! My system is a Dual Xeon Dual Core, 4 Gigs of RAM, NVidia Quadro FX1500 running Edius Broadcast 4.6 with RX-E1 board and HDBX100!
I don´t know if this kind of processing is hardware accelerated, but in the HARDWARE SETTINGS panel, the Canopus HQ Codec is set to Online (fine).
Is my system similar to yours??? Am I missing something???

Thanks

[GrassValley_KH]

No layout does not work on sequences.

It doesn't?


It's working here...

[SRsupport]

Try this and report back.

Open a Hd project 1920 X1080.

put some clips on the timeline.

put an in and out
use sequence in out
this will create a sequence above the clips.

Now switch your project to a sd hardware profile
Try to fit height.

It does not work.

The sequence was made in A full Hd project so it should allow it. The problem is is that the * default is swicthed to 4:3 which is wrong because the * default is actually 16:9.

This is a invalid switch.

** do the same with shif Q and it works.

Steve