HDV clips in a SD project

[xmanflash]

I have a project that is shot in SD 4x3 DVCAM. My B roll clips are HDV 1440X1080i (shot with the new EX-1).

Hi Ronnie..

Is there a way you could upload a 30 second clip (the HDV one) for us to have a look at? - one where you can see the issues?

I am going to do some playing and see if I can come up with something that works - I am about to try my HV20 at 1920P mode down to SD and see what happens..

[xmanflash]

Lets hope that Blu Ray gets a solid grip, and we can all forget about SD !

The EX1 is fantastic, but everyone is having the same issues, I'm testing Vegas pro 8 today, it is supposed to work pretty well for downconvert, but lets see, ...l

This is a good thread..

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=112961

including..

"but clearly the EX1 yielded superior results for an SD project.

I did have some minor problems scaling (Premiere Pro user) with artifacts. I took the footage into After Effects to scale and it looked fabulous."

---------------------------------

So its the software not the camera ? and having to size down by 1.875 (PAL) just HAS to be difficult! Why cant they make these things exactly twice as big as PAL ! 2048 x 1024 would be excellent for downconverting (1:1 pixel ratio in 16x9 PAL)..

Oh - and the new HV20 is the HV30 - http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...HV30-34020.htm

Its basically the same but Black and 60P :-)

(also http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=117855 on EX1 vs HVX)


And the EX-1 scaled down on YouTube looks loverly! - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anp4j_XQmgM

[RonnieMartin]

After a two day search on the Internet with the problem I have been experiencing it appears to me that it may be a software problem.
When I look back at my projects shot with the Z1 then down converted in Edius 4.x to SD DVD any time there is a straight line it is jagged.

From looking at other forums, it appears that Final Cut users are not having the problem that I have been experiencing. I know that you have to take the posts with a grain of salt many times, but on several of the forums this report from different individuals is the same. One quote from a PPro user I found was

"I did have some minor problems scaling (Premiere Pro user) with artifacts. I took the footage into After Effects to scale and it looked fabulous. "

Is there someway to do this in Edius/procoder without After Effects?

My dad always told me not to be the first one to jump on the train or the last one to get aboard. I guess I should have listened to him.

Anyway, I have to make a decision by tomorrow. I shoot the B roll on Friday and it is a run and gun situation. The DSR 500 is way too heavy and obtrusive to use at the University in a run and gun mode.

I give up and will go back to SD. I will shoot either with a DSR 250 or
PD 170. More than likely it will be the PD 170. I figure it will a couple of years before Blu Ray or HD DVD gets down to where my customer base will buy it. The players will have to come way down also.

One more note.... I did a test with the DSR 500. I shot the brick wall of a church nearby and then did the same with the EX. On the timeline the DSR 500 footage was clean... the EX footage looked super in HDV mode on the monitor.... However, when I put it along side of the 500 with the project settings at 720x480 it looked unusable.


Ronnie

[Khoi Pham]

Can you upload a couple of seconds of that EX1 footage of the wall? I like to see how unusable it is on a SD timeline.

[PaulTV]

I'm trying to continue my tests on this, Ronnie, you could download an AE trial (30 days) to test the EX footage down convert??

Paul

[PaulTV]

Ronnie,

Have mailed you

paul

[Bluetongue]

I have seen these artifacts in a HDV project when importing a large 5Mpixel still into Edius and wanted to manipulate it in 3D PiP to Pan or zoom into the still and horizontal lines or diagonal lines get the Jaggies.
My solution has been to manipulate them in Boris red and then output in Canopus HQ 1440x1080.
I have seen these also occasionally in DVD's downsized from HDV to DVD and the partial solution has been to
1: Output a Canopus HQ AVI in 1920x 1080 (Full HD)
2: Bring into Procoder 3 and then down convert to a DVD 720 x 576 and the Jaggies have almost disappeared when played on a TV (NOT ON the computer Monitor)
3: The full solution is, and this will not be available to most is
3a: Export in 1920 x 1080 Canopus HQ AVI as before
3b: Import into Ulead Media Studio Pro 7 with a Canopus HQ 1920 x 1080 preset (Canopus HQ plugs into MSP)
3c: Output to DVD through the MSP Mpeg encoder (It is really good, the only part that is stable)
And there the Jaggies are gone
There appears to be a problem with how Edius and to some extent Procoder handle non square pixels
As I don't edit in SD, I have not had the problem other than output to DVD and that was solved some time ago and I thought it must have been my set up but it now appears universal,
I just tried exporting a clip to SD DV AVI from a HDV time line in EDIUS and that is not any help either, Same using PC3, hope this is of some help
Regards Barry

[Bluetongue]

Just tried one other thing I exported to DV AVI from MSP and there were no jaggies when imported back into Edius.
Must be the way EDius is handling the Non square pixels?
Barry

[ixlor8]

Camcorder conversion of HDV to SD

Camcorder conversion of HDV to SD

Final output is DVD.

I have a Sony FX7.

Do you get the best results with doing a camcorder HDV to SD conversion then going to DVD?

I have gone from FX7 HDV to Canopus HD and printy to DVD. The DVD looks quite good.

Any feelings that the camcorder conversion might be a little better image quality?

[Bluetongue]

Camcorder conversion of HDV to SD

Do you get the best results with doing a camcorder HDV to SD conversion then going to DVD?

I have gone from FX7 HDV to Canopus HD and printy to DVD. The DVD looks quite good.

Any feelings that the camcorder conversion might be a little better image quality?

I have tried both ways and it has been definately better so far as the "Jaggies" are concerned, but that would have meant making 2 timelines one in SD and another in HD as I need a HD version for use with a DiVCO HD player when giving seminars at a number of clubs (HD is much better) as well as an SD version on Tape for submission to the local Community TV station (this needs to be downsized to 4x3 so better from the HD) and for DVD.

Have not got around to making Blueray yet until playback of the disks we make is universal on all players, and no one I know has one or is interested at the moment, a bit of a curiosity at the moment but that will change.

So a solution needed to be found and having compared making a DVD both ways from the HDV seems slightly sharper?? subjective!
As cameras get better some of the settings I listed will probably need tweaking and as a guess the "Circular Blur" may need increasing.
This really only became a problem after upgrading from an FX1 to the Canons which are sharper and up popped the Jaggies, looks like a zebra patter on horizontal or close to horizontal lines
You might want to look at this http://ediusforum.grassvalley.com/fo...ead.php?t=4859
Hope this helps
Regards Barry

[ixlor8]

Barry

Thanks for the information.

I have a Canon HV20 too. No question that the HD video converted to SD DVD in Edius is better than the DVlock conversion of the HV20.

The Sony FX7 does a nice job in camcorder down sampling from HD to SD. The quality I feel is the same using HD in Edius and printing to DVD.

I could see how sharpness of the video would make a difference. I must say out of Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 / Encore, Newtek SpeedEdit 1.5 and Edius 4.5, Edius has the best looking DVD's.

Side Note: How do you like ProDAD Mercalli?

[Bluetongue]

Barry
Side Note: How do you like ProDAD Mercalli?

That has to be the greatest little program devised, once again there are limitations for best results the video has to be reasonably steady but it can make hand held look like you have a tripod.
It is great for tracking birds flying in a clear or fully overcast sky with full zoom.
If you use the zoom function to eliminate borders you may have to use a little Sharpness filter
Try the trial version, has a big X across the screen but will give you a good idea of how it works.
Has a great number of presets as well
Regards Barry

[RonnieMartin]

I have spent a week now trying to solve the problem of down converting hdv to SD from within Edius 4.6 with out any resolve.

I have searched many of the forums and no one seems to have a handle on the best way to do it in Edius.

I checked the camera settings again and again.... tried every possible setting in Edius and still have the jaggies.. on horizontal lines.

I am Kinda like Jerry Clower and the Raccoon. "Just shoot up here among us because one of us needs some relief!!."

Am I the only one with this problem?
Is it an EX camera problem or software Edius problem?

Like I said before I believe that I had jumped too soon on the HD band wagon.

Either the camera or Software must go.

Sorry to be so negative...just frustrated after spending so much on a new work station and camera with very poor results.

Here in lies the problem…. When I down convert footage from the EX or Z1 (EX being the worse) that was shot at 1440x1080 (HDV) on the Edius 4.6 time line by changing the settings to SD 720x480 any horizontal line flickers. It may be the edge of a shelf or the bricks on a building. When I look at the native footage it is pristine. However after down converting it is not usable.

Any help surely would be appreciated

Thanks for letting me vent.

Ronnie

[ixlor8]

Ronnie

Ronnie,

I have a Sony FX7 HDV camcorder. I have not experience the problems with converting from HDV to SD DVD.

First
I set my project for 1440 x 1080.

Second
I do my editing, adding transitions and filters.

Third
I use the print to DVD setting.

The results are unbelieveable for a DVD.

Ronnie, does this sound like your work flow?

[RonnieMartin]

After looking at other forums for the same problem I found the following on a FCP forum:

"When exporting 1080i HD footage from Final Cut using Compressor, no matter what SD MPEG-2 setting you try to down-convert to, you’ll invariably end up with a rendered video file which has nasty interlaced artifacts.

The problem: the source footage is being re-interlaced during the conversion.

The solution: simply apply a de-interlacing filter to the Compressor workflow. This is as simple as switching on the de-interlacing filter in your output settings."

Could this be at the heart of the artifact problem I am seeing when down converting from HDV to SD in Edius?

Do we in fact have a de-interlacing filter in Edius? Or a way to arrive at the same result?

Thanks so much for your help. Sorry to keep this problem alive by continual posting. It is so very important to those of us who are shooting in HDV and want good SD DVDs. Especially after investing in the transition ultimately to HD and beyond.

Ronnie