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  • tingsern
    replied
    Originally posted by Bluetongue View Post
    Hi all have done some more investigating and experimenting and above is the clue
    Shutter speed 1/25 for pal is a serious improvement on the jitter for moving objects and Pan, in fact looks just like my old footage on Super 8 that ran at 18fps and the shutter speed on the camera was 1/25
    So the same could be relevant to NTSC but probably 1/30 any one else tried this
    My problem appears to be I use apature priority to control what can be controlled of depth of field and had been shooting at around 1/250 of a sec anything over 1/50 or even at 1/50 causes the jitter to become severe increasing as the shutter speed is increased. 1/250 does not appear to be a problem when using interlaced
    1/12 is not an option as the jitter is really severe
    One problem with the HV20 at 1/25 is there is not the apature range so a ND filter is required. On the A1 it is only a matter of switching in ND filters
    Regards Barry
    I use the Panasonic HVX202 here. Same thing when I film in 25p - if I set the shutter to 1/12 sec - the jitter is very bad. Minimum shutter speed is 1/25 to eliminate the jitter. It is interesting to note that on the HVX202, shooting at higher shutter speeds does not increase the jitter. Only at 1/12 sec - it is very apparent.
    I have one other option - turning OFF the shutter - in conjunction with ND filters and aperature control - used only in specialised cases (great for filming off TV without bandlines).

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  • Bluetongue
    replied
    Originally posted by Claire View Post
    Since you quite obviously do not see this glaring difference I must assume the Canon cam must work differently to the Sony so I spent some time Googling for info and have discovered that while the V1 has more detail in prog mode the Canon actually has somewhat less, so if this is the case I can now see where you are coming from with your dislike of progressive as for me it's this more highly detailed image that has me hooked!
    That is interesting Clare, I have an FX1 which is the amateur version of the Z1P which is the previous version to the V1, the FX1 has been relegated to standby / backup due to the Canons both being considerably sharper to the FX1 especially at distances over 15 feet. The footage of leaves over that distance is just a blur and cannot be made sharper on the FX1 where the canon pulls all the detail straight out.
    From what you are saying it looks like Sony lifted their game as the "Progressive" 25 cine from the FX1 is in my opinion not worth using, nothing like the Canons and as I Quoted I can find no perceivable difference in the final footage between Progressive and Interlaced from the Canons except on the Editing Edius Monitor where a stopped still from the timeline in Progressive is sharper.
    Times change in such short spans these days "Top of the line one day obsolete the next"
    Regards Barry

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  • Claire
    replied
    Originally posted by Bluetongue View Post
    Clair
    You really got me going on this one
    Made footage of 3 Clips 1: still scene 2: Pan across a scene at my normal speed 3: a person walking across scene
    Each done in Progressive and then interlaced
    Results
    Brought into a new project set to HDV Progressive
    Brought the Progressive clips in with Capture set to Progressive
    Had to be set to progressive in properties on the Time line were (Top field first)
    Brought the next set of clips into Edius using HDV Interlaced
    On the Edius Monitor (Full screen Samsung 22 inch) and Video Overlay set to Update period Frame or Field (Have to restart Edius for the changes in Update to be registered.)
    The progressive footage looks sharper when not played ie STILL
    On play the still clip looks good
    The Pan clip has Jitter
    The person walking has jitter
    Interlaced footage is not quite as sharp but has no jitter on the clips with movement
    Change the Update Period to Field and there is little difference between Progressive and Interlaced except for the jitter
    Changed the project settings to HDV Interlaced and the Progressive footage looks much sharper on the monitor in Update Period Frame but little difference when viewed at Field, but the overall picture on the monitor is not as sharp.
    Output 3 Videos to my DVICO and projector which can handle both Progressive and interlaced.
    Results as follows
    1: Sharpness NO Difference with Progressive and Interlaced footage
    2: Jitter on the moving pictures in Progressive as seen on the Edius Monitor, even exported an interlaced video from a Progressive Project and it inherited the jitter.
    3: Interlaced video was the smoothest and as there was no difference to the sharpness that is where I will be staying
    Hope this helps
    Regards Barry
    Barry thanks for this interesting report, I have been out today in glorious weather (for Feb in UK) and shot some interlaced again. In fact I took duplicate shots in both Interlaced and Progressive just to remind myself of why I moved to mostly shooting progressive with my V1E.

    It was immediately apparent when reviewing this footage that we are seeing different things as my interlaced footage is rubbish compared to the progressive but I do not think it's anything to do with either sharpness or which is smoothest, instead it's simply the clarity and definition that is superior in my progressive footage.

    Actually it matters not to the computer if I capture this as frames or fields into an Edius project since it all looks the same other than when paused on the timeline for the interlaced stuff you must allow for how you have Edius View > Pause > field or frame set. I can tell immediately from either the paused video or in motion which clip is which simply by the fact there is so much more DETAIL in the progressive version, I am talking about seeing whole leaves on distant trees as opposed to a rough outline shape of the leaf. I have a golf course opposite my house and I can almost count the bits of frost glinting in the early morning sunshine on the grass when I watch the progressive stuff and the same scene in interlaced taken moments later with cam in same position on tripod is... well soft in comparison.

    Since you quite obviously do not see this glaring difference I must assume the Canon cam must work differently to the Sony so I spent some time Googling for info and have discovered that while the V1 has more detail in prog mode the Canon actually has somewhat less, so if this is the case I can now see where you are coming from with your dislike of progressive as for me it's this more highly detailed image that has me hooked!

    This is of course a separate issue to the pros and cons about the film look and if you like it or not, for me I can work around the jittery pans mostly in the type of filming I do, where it's mostly stuff moving in frame as opposed to moving the cam across the subject, makes a huge difference.

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  • THoff
    replied
    The "standard" shutter speed is 180 degrees, or twice the framerate, i.e. 1/50th and 1/60th for PAL and NTSC, respectively.

    If you set the shutter to 1/25, you will get smooth, jitter-free images, but also a lot of motion blur. In some cases that will be acceptable, but in many others, it will not. I would be careful about settling on a shutter speed equal to the framerate as a matter of course without testing to see if it works for what you are shooting.

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  • Bluetongue
    replied
    Originally posted by jaegersing View Post
    Hi Andy. The shutter speed should normally be 1/50s for 25p, 1/60s for 30p and 1/48s for 24p. 50Hz is quite a different meaning. What you say about pans is correct though.

    Faster shutter speeds will increase the strobing effect of moving subject or camera in progressive footage. And if you are planning to apply slo-mo you will get much better results shooting that section in 50i to begin with.

    Richard
    Hi all have done some more investigating and experimenting and above is the clue
    Shutter speed 1/25 for pal is a serious improvement on the jitter for moving objects and Pan, in fact looks just like my old footage on Super 8 that ran at 18fps and the shutter speed on the camera was 1/25
    So the same could be relevant to NTSC but probably 1/30 any one else tried this
    My problem appears to be I use apature priority to control what can be controlled of depth of field and had been shooting at around 1/250 of a sec anything over 1/50 or even at 1/50 causes the jitter to become severe increasing as the shutter speed is increased. 1/250 does not appear to be a problem when using interlaced
    1/12 is not an option as the jitter is really severe
    One problem with the HV20 at 1/25 is there is not the apature range so a ND filter is required. On the A1 it is only a matter of switching in ND filters
    Regards Barry

    Leave a comment:


  • GrassValley_KH
    replied
    Originally posted by djbates6 View Post
    Maybe Edius v4.6 will have a 25p capture profile for the HV20? Any comments from GrassValley?
    The 25p capture options appear to remain unchanged in v4.6

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  • AndyW69
    replied
    My XDCam HD camera can record variable frame rates, this is when you need to apply the 1/125 shutter. ie when shooting at 50 frames per sec.

    Andy

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  • jaegersing
    replied
    Originally posted by AndyW69 View Post
    Hi, when shooting progressive you need to add a 50Hz shutter in PAL and I presume a 60 Hz one for NTSC. You should also run a pan at a sensible controlled speed (look at movies, pans are usally very gentle). If your camera can do slow mo you should add a 125 shutter in PAL, really smooths it on my PDW-350

    Andy
    Hi Andy. The shutter speed should normally be 1/50s for 25p, 1/60s for 30p and 1/48s for 24p. 50Hz is quite a different meaning. What you say about pans is correct though.

    Faster shutter speeds will increase the strobing effect of moving subject or camera in progressive footage. And if you are planning to apply slo-mo you will get much better results shooting that section in 50i to begin with.

    Richard

    Leave a comment:


  • djbates6
    replied
    Thanks Claire, Barry and Andy. Looks like I've opened the old progressive v interlaced argument which I didn't really mean to do. It seems that the Sony V1E sets the pulldown flag so Edius is able to recognise scenes as progressive. Unfortunately Canon neglected to provide that feature so Edius treats the clips as interlaced during capture. I think resetting the clips to progressive after capture is the way to go. Mind you this is quite a time consuming activity as there is no batch process. Maybe Edius v4.6 will have a 25p capture profile for the HV20? Any comments from GrassValley?

    Cheers, David

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  • Bluetongue
    replied
    Good info Andy
    This Progressive / Interlaced argument will go on for ever and it comes down to a personal thing, either you like the film look or you don't.
    It was an interesting exercise to find in the final output I could not pick the difference on the Projector and I have just tried it on a 50" Bravia with 1920x1080 LCD screen with the same results.
    Pans and fast moving objects are the problem with progressive as they were back in the days of film so you either had to have movement approaching at an angle or if crossing at 90 deg it had to be some distance away to reduce the vector speed across the screen and pan very slowly
    Regards Barry

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  • AndyW69
    replied
    Hi, when shooting progressive you need to add a 50Hz shutter in PAL and I presume a 60 Hz one for NTSC. You should also run a pan at a sensible controlled speed (look at movies, pans are usally very gentle). If your camera can do slow mo you should add a 125 shutter in PAL, really smooths it on my PDW-350

    Andy

    Leave a comment:


  • Bluetongue
    replied
    Clair
    You really got me going on this one
    Made footage of 3 Clips 1: still scene 2: Pan across a scene at my normal speed 3: a person walking across scene
    Each done in Progressive and then interlaced
    Results
    Brought into a new project set to HDV Progressive
    Brought the Progressive clips in with Capture set to Progressive
    Had to be set to progressive in properties on the Time line were (Top field first)
    Brought the next set of clips into Edius using HDV Interlaced
    On the Edius Monitor (Full screen Samsung 22 inch) and Video Overlay set to Update period Frame or Field (Have to restart Edius for the changes in Update to be registered.)
    The progressive footage looks sharper when not played ie STILL
    On play the still clip looks good
    The Pan clip has Jitter
    The person walking has jitter
    Interlaced footage is not quite as sharp but has no jitter on the clips with movement
    Change the Update Period to Field and there is little difference between Progressive and Interlaced except for the jitter
    Changed the project settings to HDV Interlaced and the Progressive footage looks much sharper on the monitor in Update Period Frame but little difference when viewed at Field, but the overall picture on the monitor is not as sharp.
    Output 3 Videos to my DVICO and projector which can handle both Progressive and interlaced.
    Results as follows
    1: Sharpness NO Difference with Progressive and Interlaced footage
    2: Jitter on the moving pictures in Progressive as seen on the Edius Monitor, even exported an interlaced video from a Progressive Project and it inherited the jitter.
    3: Interlaced video was the smoothest and as there was no difference to the sharpness that is where I will be staying
    Hope this helps
    Regards Barry
    Last edited by Bluetongue; 02-11-2008, 05:08 AM.

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  • Bluetongue
    replied
    Clair
    You really set the cat amongst the pigeons, I went back into the HV20 Handbook but it was not really very explicit but the A1 handbook explains it just as you describe and I can remember just passing it by when first reading.
    Back to the drawing board and some more experimenting, It must have been my handling of the footage that made it look so bad if you are getting good results.
    Thanks for the info
    Regards Barry

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  • Bluetongue
    replied
    Clair
    Thanks for that info, you never stop learning. I just glossed over that when I got the camera, tried some footage which disappointed me and have not looked at it again.
    Regards Barry

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  • Claire
    replied
    Originally posted by Bluetongue View Post
    The HV20 is not 25P it is 25F which means one field is repeated to give the appearance of a progressive frame and the video quality is severely compromised as the actual video is only using 540 pixel vertical not 1080, let alone the jitter on PAN / ZOOM, yuk
    Regards Barry
    Barry, with respect I believe that the PAL HV20 in progressive mode works the same way as my V1E, which is to record in 25psf mode (progressive segmented frames). When these fields are combined the result is a full 1080 frame.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progres...egmented_Frame

    quote:

    With PsF, a progressive frame is sliced into two "segments", with the odd lines in one segment and the even lines in the other segment. This allows for a progressive picture to be processed through the same electronic circuitry that is used to store, process and route interlaced video. Technically, progressive segments are equivalent to interlaced fields, but unlike native interlaced video, there is no motion between the two fields that make up the video frame, both fields represent the same instant in time.

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