Capturing 25p video with pulldown missing

[djbates6]

The Canon HV20, when operating in 25p mode, delivers 25p video wrapped in a 50i container but does not set the 2:2 pulldown flag. When captured to a 25p timeline, Edius reads the clips as 50i top-field first. Is it simply a matter changing the field order of each clip to progressive to unwrap the 25p?

[Claire]

I have the Sony V1E and film constantly in 25P mode which I LOVE for it's greater vertical resolution and clarity, what I do after creating a 25P project is to capture to Edius 4.5 using "Generic HDV Input" and select the "Canopus HQ 1440x1080/25P" input format.

With scene detection all my clips come in as progressive, no nasty fields. I HATE FIELDS <grin>.

Maybe this will work for your HV20?

[Bluetongue]

The Canon HV20, when operating in 25p mode, delivers 25p video wrapped in a 50i container but does not set the 2:2 pulldown flag.

The HV20 is not 25P it is 25F which means one field is repeated to give the appearance of a progressive frame and the video quality is severely compromised as the actual video is only using 540 pixel vertical not 1080, let alone the jitter on PAN / ZOOM, yuk
Regards Barry

[Claire]

The HV20 is not 25P it is 25F which means one field is repeated to give the appearance of a progressive frame and the video quality is severely compromised as the actual video is only using 540 pixel vertical not 1080, let alone the jitter on PAN / ZOOM, yuk
Regards Barry

Barry, with respect I believe that the PAL HV20 in progressive mode works the same way as my V1E, which is to record in 25psf mode (progressive segmented frames). When these fields are combined the result is a full 1080 frame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_segmented_Frame

quote:

With PsF, a progressive frame is sliced into two "segments", with the odd lines in one segment and the even lines in the other segment. This allows for a progressive picture to be processed through the same electronic circuitry that is used to store, process and route interlaced video. Technically, progressive segments are equivalent to interlaced fields, but unlike native interlaced video, there is no motion between the two fields that make up the video frame, both fields represent the same instant in time.

[Bluetongue]

Clair
Thanks for that info, you never stop learning. I just glossed over that when I got the camera, tried some footage which disappointed me and have not looked at it again.
Regards Barry

[Bluetongue]

Clair
You really set the cat amongst the pigeons, I went back into the HV20 Handbook but it was not really very explicit but the A1 handbook explains it just as you describe and I can remember just passing it by when first reading.
Back to the drawing board and some more experimenting, It must have been my handling of the footage that made it look so bad if you are getting good results.
Thanks for the info
Regards Barry

[Bluetongue]

Clair
You really got me going on this one
Made footage of 3 Clips 1: still scene 2: Pan across a scene at my normal speed 3: a person walking across scene
Each done in Progressive and then interlaced
Results
Brought into a new project set to HDV Progressive
Brought the Progressive clips in with Capture set to Progressive
Had to be set to progressive in properties on the Time line were (Top field first)
Brought the next set of clips into Edius using HDV Interlaced
On the Edius Monitor (Full screen Samsung 22 inch) and Video Overlay set to Update period Frame or Field (Have to restart Edius for the changes in Update to be registered.)
The progressive footage looks sharper when not played ie STILL
On play the still clip looks good
The Pan clip has Jitter
The person walking has jitter
Interlaced footage is not quite as sharp but has no jitter on the clips with movement
Change the Update Period to Field and there is little difference between Progressive and Interlaced except for the jitter
Changed the project settings to HDV Interlaced and the Progressive footage looks much sharper on the monitor in Update Period Frame but little difference when viewed at Field, but the overall picture on the monitor is not as sharp.
Output 3 Videos to my DVICO and projector which can handle both Progressive and interlaced.
Results as follows
1: Sharpness NO Difference with Progressive and Interlaced footage
2: Jitter on the moving pictures in Progressive as seen on the Edius Monitor, even exported an interlaced video from a Progressive Project and it inherited the jitter.
3: Interlaced video was the smoothest and as there was no difference to the sharpness that is where I will be staying
Hope this helps
Regards Barry

[AndyW69]

Hi, when shooting progressive you need to add a 50Hz shutter in PAL and I presume a 60 Hz one for NTSC. You should also run a pan at a sensible controlled speed (look at movies, pans are usally very gentle). If your camera can do slow mo you should add a 125 shutter in PAL, really smooths it on my PDW-350

Andy

[Bluetongue]

Good info Andy
This Progressive / Interlaced argument will go on for ever and it comes down to a personal thing, either you like the film look or you don't.
It was an interesting exercise to find in the final output I could not pick the difference on the Projector and I have just tried it on a 50" Bravia with 1920x1080 LCD screen with the same results.
Pans and fast moving objects are the problem with progressive as they were back in the days of film so you either had to have movement approaching at an angle or if crossing at 90 deg it had to be some distance away to reduce the vector speed across the screen and pan very slowly
Regards Barry

[djbates6]

Thanks Claire, Barry and Andy. Looks like I've opened the old progressive v interlaced argument which I didn't really mean to do. It seems that the Sony V1E sets the pulldown flag so Edius is able to recognise scenes as progressive. Unfortunately Canon neglected to provide that feature so Edius treats the clips as interlaced during capture. I think resetting the clips to progressive after capture is the way to go. Mind you this is quite a time consuming activity as there is no batch process. Maybe Edius v4.6 will have a 25p capture profile for the HV20? Any comments from GrassValley?

Cheers, David

[jaegersing]

Hi, when shooting progressive you need to add a 50Hz shutter in PAL and I presume a 60 Hz one for NTSC. You should also run a pan at a sensible controlled speed (look at movies, pans are usally very gentle). If your camera can do slow mo you should add a 125 shutter in PAL, really smooths it on my PDW-350

Andy

Hi Andy. The shutter speed should normally be 1/50s for 25p, 1/60s for 30p and 1/48s for 24p. 50Hz is quite a different meaning. What you say about pans is correct though.

Faster shutter speeds will increase the strobing effect of moving subject or camera in progressive footage. And if you are planning to apply slo-mo you will get much better results shooting that section in 50i to begin with.

Richard

[AndyW69]

My XDCam HD camera can record variable frame rates, this is when you need to apply the 1/125 shutter. ie when shooting at 50 frames per sec.

Andy

[GrassValley_KH]

Maybe Edius v4.6 will have a 25p capture profile for the HV20? Any comments from GrassValley?

The 25p capture options appear to remain unchanged in v4.6

[Bluetongue]

Hi Andy. The shutter speed should normally be 1/50s for 25p, 1/60s for 30p and 1/48s for 24p. 50Hz is quite a different meaning. What you say about pans is correct though.

Faster shutter speeds will increase the strobing effect of moving subject or camera in progressive footage. And if you are planning to apply slo-mo you will get much better results shooting that section in 50i to begin with.

Richard

Hi all have done some more investigating and experimenting and above is the clue
Shutter speed 1/25 for pal is a serious improvement on the jitter for moving objects and Pan, in fact looks just like my old footage on Super 8 that ran at 18fps and the shutter speed on the camera was 1/25
So the same could be relevant to NTSC but probably 1/30 any one else tried this
My problem appears to be I use apature priority to control what can be controlled of depth of field and had been shooting at around 1/250 of a sec anything over 1/50 or even at 1/50 causes the jitter to become severe increasing as the shutter speed is increased. 1/250 does not appear to be a problem when using interlaced
1/12 is not an option as the jitter is really severe
One problem with the HV20 at 1/25 is there is not the apature range so a ND filter is required. On the A1 it is only a matter of switching in ND filters
Regards Barry

[THoff]

The "standard" shutter speed is 180 degrees, or twice the framerate, i.e. 1/50th and 1/60th for PAL and NTSC, respectively.

If you set the shutter to 1/25, you will get smooth, jitter-free images, but also a lot of motion blur. In some cases that will be acceptable, but in many others, it will not. I would be careful about settling on a shutter speed equal to the framerate as a matter of course without testing to see if it works for what you are shooting.