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  • Capturing 25p video with pulldown missing

    The Canon HV20, when operating in 25p mode, delivers 25p video wrapped in a 50i container but does not set the 2:2 pulldown flag. When captured to a 25p timeline, Edius reads the clips as 50i top-field first. Is it simply a matter changing the field order of each clip to progressive to unwrap the 25p?

  • #2
    I have the Sony V1E and film constantly in 25P mode which I LOVE for it's greater vertical resolution and clarity, what I do after creating a 25P project is to capture to Edius 4.5 using "Generic HDV Input" and select the "Canopus HQ 1440x1080/25P" input format.

    With scene detection all my clips come in as progressive, no nasty fields. I HATE FIELDS <grin>.

    Maybe this will work for your HV20?
    Claire

    Edius 8.53 Workgroup, DVC Built i7 5960X 8 core Haswell-E Unlocked, Win10 Pro 64 bit, Gigabyte GA-X99-UD4, 32GB DDR4 RAM, RTX 2080 Ti 11GB, Decklink 4K Extreme 12G, TMPGEnc Movie Plug-in AVC, Eizo 31" ColorEdge CG319X HDR 4K monitor

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    • #3
      Originally posted by djbates6 View Post
      The Canon HV20, when operating in 25p mode, delivers 25p video wrapped in a 50i container but does not set the 2:2 pulldown flag.
      The HV20 is not 25P it is 25F which means one field is repeated to give the appearance of a progressive frame and the video quality is severely compromised as the actual video is only using 540 pixel vertical not 1080, let alone the jitter on PAN / ZOOM, yuk
      Regards Barry
      Win 10HP, EDIUS WG9.4, HD Spark, Boris RED 5, VMW6, Authorworks 6, Bluff Titler, VisTitler 2.8, NEAT 3/4, Mercalli 2/4, Vitascene, Izotope RX6 Plugin, NewBlue, Trend Micro AV
      GB GA-X58A-UD3R MB, i7 [email protected], 12G 1600mhz Mem, Samsung EVO-250G SSD, 3x2T RAID, GTX 970W OC, 2x24 inch LG Monitors
      Canon XH-A1/ Canon HF-G30, GoPro Hero3 Black, Edit @1920 50p HQ preset

      https://vimeo.com/user2157719/videos
      Laptop ASUS G752VT-GC060T Win 10HP, Edius WG8.53 Samsung M2 SSD 256G+1Tb HD,

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Bluetongue View Post
        The HV20 is not 25P it is 25F which means one field is repeated to give the appearance of a progressive frame and the video quality is severely compromised as the actual video is only using 540 pixel vertical not 1080, let alone the jitter on PAN / ZOOM, yuk
        Regards Barry
        Barry, with respect I believe that the PAL HV20 in progressive mode works the same way as my V1E, which is to record in 25psf mode (progressive segmented frames). When these fields are combined the result is a full 1080 frame.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progres...egmented_Frame

        quote:

        With PsF, a progressive frame is sliced into two "segments", with the odd lines in one segment and the even lines in the other segment. This allows for a progressive picture to be processed through the same electronic circuitry that is used to store, process and route interlaced video. Technically, progressive segments are equivalent to interlaced fields, but unlike native interlaced video, there is no motion between the two fields that make up the video frame, both fields represent the same instant in time.
        Claire

        Edius 8.53 Workgroup, DVC Built i7 5960X 8 core Haswell-E Unlocked, Win10 Pro 64 bit, Gigabyte GA-X99-UD4, 32GB DDR4 RAM, RTX 2080 Ti 11GB, Decklink 4K Extreme 12G, TMPGEnc Movie Plug-in AVC, Eizo 31" ColorEdge CG319X HDR 4K monitor

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        • #5
          Clair
          Thanks for that info, you never stop learning. I just glossed over that when I got the camera, tried some footage which disappointed me and have not looked at it again.
          Regards Barry
          Win 10HP, EDIUS WG9.4, HD Spark, Boris RED 5, VMW6, Authorworks 6, Bluff Titler, VisTitler 2.8, NEAT 3/4, Mercalli 2/4, Vitascene, Izotope RX6 Plugin, NewBlue, Trend Micro AV
          GB GA-X58A-UD3R MB, i7 [email protected], 12G 1600mhz Mem, Samsung EVO-250G SSD, 3x2T RAID, GTX 970W OC, 2x24 inch LG Monitors
          Canon XH-A1/ Canon HF-G30, GoPro Hero3 Black, Edit @1920 50p HQ preset

          https://vimeo.com/user2157719/videos
          Laptop ASUS G752VT-GC060T Win 10HP, Edius WG8.53 Samsung M2 SSD 256G+1Tb HD,

          Comment


          • #6
            Clair
            You really set the cat amongst the pigeons, I went back into the HV20 Handbook but it was not really very explicit but the A1 handbook explains it just as you describe and I can remember just passing it by when first reading.
            Back to the drawing board and some more experimenting, It must have been my handling of the footage that made it look so bad if you are getting good results.
            Thanks for the info
            Regards Barry
            Win 10HP, EDIUS WG9.4, HD Spark, Boris RED 5, VMW6, Authorworks 6, Bluff Titler, VisTitler 2.8, NEAT 3/4, Mercalli 2/4, Vitascene, Izotope RX6 Plugin, NewBlue, Trend Micro AV
            GB GA-X58A-UD3R MB, i7 [email protected], 12G 1600mhz Mem, Samsung EVO-250G SSD, 3x2T RAID, GTX 970W OC, 2x24 inch LG Monitors
            Canon XH-A1/ Canon HF-G30, GoPro Hero3 Black, Edit @1920 50p HQ preset

            https://vimeo.com/user2157719/videos
            Laptop ASUS G752VT-GC060T Win 10HP, Edius WG8.53 Samsung M2 SSD 256G+1Tb HD,

            Comment


            • #7
              Clair
              You really got me going on this one
              Made footage of 3 Clips 1: still scene 2: Pan across a scene at my normal speed 3: a person walking across scene
              Each done in Progressive and then interlaced
              Results
              Brought into a new project set to HDV Progressive
              Brought the Progressive clips in with Capture set to Progressive
              Had to be set to progressive in properties on the Time line were (Top field first)
              Brought the next set of clips into Edius using HDV Interlaced
              On the Edius Monitor (Full screen Samsung 22 inch) and Video Overlay set to Update period Frame or Field (Have to restart Edius for the changes in Update to be registered.)
              The progressive footage looks sharper when not played ie STILL
              On play the still clip looks good
              The Pan clip has Jitter
              The person walking has jitter
              Interlaced footage is not quite as sharp but has no jitter on the clips with movement
              Change the Update Period to Field and there is little difference between Progressive and Interlaced except for the jitter
              Changed the project settings to HDV Interlaced and the Progressive footage looks much sharper on the monitor in Update Period Frame but little difference when viewed at Field, but the overall picture on the monitor is not as sharp.
              Output 3 Videos to my DVICO and projector which can handle both Progressive and interlaced.
              Results as follows
              1: Sharpness NO Difference with Progressive and Interlaced footage
              2: Jitter on the moving pictures in Progressive as seen on the Edius Monitor, even exported an interlaced video from a Progressive Project and it inherited the jitter.
              3: Interlaced video was the smoothest and as there was no difference to the sharpness that is where I will be staying
              Hope this helps
              Regards Barry
              Last edited by Bluetongue; 02-11-2008, 05:08 AM.
              Win 10HP, EDIUS WG9.4, HD Spark, Boris RED 5, VMW6, Authorworks 6, Bluff Titler, VisTitler 2.8, NEAT 3/4, Mercalli 2/4, Vitascene, Izotope RX6 Plugin, NewBlue, Trend Micro AV
              GB GA-X58A-UD3R MB, i7 [email protected], 12G 1600mhz Mem, Samsung EVO-250G SSD, 3x2T RAID, GTX 970W OC, 2x24 inch LG Monitors
              Canon XH-A1/ Canon HF-G30, GoPro Hero3 Black, Edit @1920 50p HQ preset

              https://vimeo.com/user2157719/videos
              Laptop ASUS G752VT-GC060T Win 10HP, Edius WG8.53 Samsung M2 SSD 256G+1Tb HD,

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi, when shooting progressive you need to add a 50Hz shutter in PAL and I presume a 60 Hz one for NTSC. You should also run a pan at a sensible controlled speed (look at movies, pans are usally very gentle). If your camera can do slow mo you should add a 125 shutter in PAL, really smooths it on my PDW-350

                Andy

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                • #9
                  Good info Andy
                  This Progressive / Interlaced argument will go on for ever and it comes down to a personal thing, either you like the film look or you don't.
                  It was an interesting exercise to find in the final output I could not pick the difference on the Projector and I have just tried it on a 50" Bravia with 1920x1080 LCD screen with the same results.
                  Pans and fast moving objects are the problem with progressive as they were back in the days of film so you either had to have movement approaching at an angle or if crossing at 90 deg it had to be some distance away to reduce the vector speed across the screen and pan very slowly
                  Regards Barry
                  Win 10HP, EDIUS WG9.4, HD Spark, Boris RED 5, VMW6, Authorworks 6, Bluff Titler, VisTitler 2.8, NEAT 3/4, Mercalli 2/4, Vitascene, Izotope RX6 Plugin, NewBlue, Trend Micro AV
                  GB GA-X58A-UD3R MB, i7 [email protected], 12G 1600mhz Mem, Samsung EVO-250G SSD, 3x2T RAID, GTX 970W OC, 2x24 inch LG Monitors
                  Canon XH-A1/ Canon HF-G30, GoPro Hero3 Black, Edit @1920 50p HQ preset

                  https://vimeo.com/user2157719/videos
                  Laptop ASUS G752VT-GC060T Win 10HP, Edius WG8.53 Samsung M2 SSD 256G+1Tb HD,

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks Claire, Barry and Andy. Looks like I've opened the old progressive v interlaced argument which I didn't really mean to do. It seems that the Sony V1E sets the pulldown flag so Edius is able to recognise scenes as progressive. Unfortunately Canon neglected to provide that feature so Edius treats the clips as interlaced during capture. I think resetting the clips to progressive after capture is the way to go. Mind you this is quite a time consuming activity as there is no batch process. Maybe Edius v4.6 will have a 25p capture profile for the HV20? Any comments from GrassValley?

                    Cheers, David

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AndyW69 View Post
                      Hi, when shooting progressive you need to add a 50Hz shutter in PAL and I presume a 60 Hz one for NTSC. You should also run a pan at a sensible controlled speed (look at movies, pans are usally very gentle). If your camera can do slow mo you should add a 125 shutter in PAL, really smooths it on my PDW-350

                      Andy
                      Hi Andy. The shutter speed should normally be 1/50s for 25p, 1/60s for 30p and 1/48s for 24p. 50Hz is quite a different meaning. What you say about pans is correct though.

                      Faster shutter speeds will increase the strobing effect of moving subject or camera in progressive footage. And if you are planning to apply slo-mo you will get much better results shooting that section in 50i to begin with.

                      Richard

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                      • #12
                        My XDCam HD camera can record variable frame rates, this is when you need to apply the 1/125 shutter. ie when shooting at 50 frames per sec.

                        Andy

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by djbates6 View Post
                          Maybe Edius v4.6 will have a 25p capture profile for the HV20? Any comments from GrassValley?
                          The 25p capture options appear to remain unchanged in v4.6

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jaegersing View Post
                            Hi Andy. The shutter speed should normally be 1/50s for 25p, 1/60s for 30p and 1/48s for 24p. 50Hz is quite a different meaning. What you say about pans is correct though.

                            Faster shutter speeds will increase the strobing effect of moving subject or camera in progressive footage. And if you are planning to apply slo-mo you will get much better results shooting that section in 50i to begin with.

                            Richard
                            Hi all have done some more investigating and experimenting and above is the clue
                            Shutter speed 1/25 for pal is a serious improvement on the jitter for moving objects and Pan, in fact looks just like my old footage on Super 8 that ran at 18fps and the shutter speed on the camera was 1/25
                            So the same could be relevant to NTSC but probably 1/30 any one else tried this
                            My problem appears to be I use apature priority to control what can be controlled of depth of field and had been shooting at around 1/250 of a sec anything over 1/50 or even at 1/50 causes the jitter to become severe increasing as the shutter speed is increased. 1/250 does not appear to be a problem when using interlaced
                            1/12 is not an option as the jitter is really severe
                            One problem with the HV20 at 1/25 is there is not the apature range so a ND filter is required. On the A1 it is only a matter of switching in ND filters
                            Regards Barry
                            Win 10HP, EDIUS WG9.4, HD Spark, Boris RED 5, VMW6, Authorworks 6, Bluff Titler, VisTitler 2.8, NEAT 3/4, Mercalli 2/4, Vitascene, Izotope RX6 Plugin, NewBlue, Trend Micro AV
                            GB GA-X58A-UD3R MB, i7 [email protected], 12G 1600mhz Mem, Samsung EVO-250G SSD, 3x2T RAID, GTX 970W OC, 2x24 inch LG Monitors
                            Canon XH-A1/ Canon HF-G30, GoPro Hero3 Black, Edit @1920 50p HQ preset

                            https://vimeo.com/user2157719/videos
                            Laptop ASUS G752VT-GC060T Win 10HP, Edius WG8.53 Samsung M2 SSD 256G+1Tb HD,

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The "standard" shutter speed is 180 degrees, or twice the framerate, i.e. 1/50th and 1/60th for PAL and NTSC, respectively.

                              If you set the shutter to 1/25, you will get smooth, jitter-free images, but also a lot of motion blur. In some cases that will be acceptable, but in many others, it will not. I would be careful about settling on a shutter speed equal to the framerate as a matter of course without testing to see if it works for what you are shooting.

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