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PANASONIC AG-HVX200 with Edius

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  • #16
    I don't think solid state camcorders are a viable solution for people who do events....unless the events you shoot are pretty short.

    I like XDCAM discs, much cheaper than P2, but even the 35mbps HQ mode still uses 4:2:0 MPEG2 :(

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    • #17
      That's the problem with Sony XDCAM, EX1, etc ... they all use LONG GOP with MPEG2 compression and 4:2:0. Terrible. For shots that get shown without much editing, getting through After Effects, etc ... it is okay. The moment you start chopping down to frame level - you, errr, die :-(.

      Panasonic uses DVCPRO HD - a much better codec - at 100mbits/sec. Uses only intraframe compression.
      TingSern
      --------------------------------------
      Edius 9.4 Pro, Lenovo P72 workstation laptop, 64GB RAM, Xeon CPU, Windows 10 Pro (64 bits), 2 x 2TB Samsung M2.NVME and 1 x 4TB Samsung SSD internal. Panasonic UX180 camera, Blackmagic 4K Pocket Cinema, Blackmagic Pocket Cinema

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      • #18
        Yes, DVCPROHD is a better codec...but it is limited to 1280x1080 for 1080...while XDCAM EX shoots at a full raster 1920x1080, though at 4:2:0 (Compared to 4:2:2 for DVCPROHD). I don't know why Sony is stuck with 4:2:0 and MPEG2, the difference between 420 and 422 is very visible.

        If Panasonic somehow releases a AVC-Intra based mini cam like the HVX, I will grab it in a heartbeat. 1/2" CMOS (Or CCD), 1920x1080 10bit @ 100Mbps AVC-Intra....sign me up!

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        • #19
          Yup - agreed. There are limitations to DVCPRO HD codec. Even at 720p (which I use all the time on my HVX202) - it only records 960 x 720 instead of 1080 x 720.

          Whether we can see the real world results between 960x720 and 1080x720 - is very subjective. Unless you put two HD TV side by side and go freeze frame mode - all my clients so far says "no difference".

          But the difference between 422 and 420 - yes - the colours in 422 are much better.

          Oh well - we shall see if your Father Santa wishes come true this year's NAB :-).
          TingSern
          --------------------------------------
          Edius 9.4 Pro, Lenovo P72 workstation laptop, 64GB RAM, Xeon CPU, Windows 10 Pro (64 bits), 2 x 2TB Samsung M2.NVME and 1 x 4TB Samsung SSD internal. Panasonic UX180 camera, Blackmagic 4K Pocket Cinema, Blackmagic Pocket Cinema

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          • #20
            I also bought EDIUS specifically for my HVX200's. I'm very happy with the p2 workflow in EDIUS. Purely from a workflow perspective EDIUS and P2 are a perfect couple.

            fukly: I'm headed to Indonesia for the second time this March. Will be there for about 6 weeks. Did some minor wedding coverage with an HVX200 while I was there last year for a little sample reel and as a test.

            You located in Jakarta, I assume?

            Anyways, P2 w/ EDIUS is a dream workflow and (as THoff said) it will spoil one rotten. I save so much time in post with this set up.

            Later,
            Jason
            HVX/P2/DVCPRO HD. EDIUS Broadcast 4.54

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            • #21
              Jason,

              Ha ha - spoils one rotten ... well said. Like what I mentioned so many times before, NO more tapes for me. Just plug in the P2 card into the reader and edit straight away ...

              Only problem right now - the high cost of P2 cards means I can't buy as many as I need ... so I depend on the 60GB offload boxs (I have two of them) - to offload my 16GB cards (2 of them) and one 8GB card ...

              Definitely no event filming - unless it is short or you can precisely film the portions of the event without leaving the camera on the whole time.
              TingSern
              --------------------------------------
              Edius 9.4 Pro, Lenovo P72 workstation laptop, 64GB RAM, Xeon CPU, Windows 10 Pro (64 bits), 2 x 2TB Samsung M2.NVME and 1 x 4TB Samsung SSD internal. Panasonic UX180 camera, Blackmagic 4K Pocket Cinema, Blackmagic Pocket Cinema

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              • #22
                hi jason,
                i'm in surabaya...right now not many wedding video grafer use HDV here.. coz they are wait n see for the P2 or SxS get cheaper... as some of the brave one straight with the GY-HD111 or Z1 OR FX1 HDV format.. and give master editing in a hardisk drive to the clients for future burning.
                but the HD1000 could be a booming here ;) coz we need at least 3 cams in wedding events ( 1 for the jimijib ).. i do dream of using ex1 but don't wanna waste money for 12 pieces of SxS or P2 card ( i mean u could buy 3 camera HVX with the same amount right?) when taiwan or china produce it, i believe the price will fall straight a way. but i do afraid of the quality ;) i have friend bought 6 GB of flashdisk in the price of 2 GB... when it reach 5 GB storage..suddenly all the data dissapear! it is a nightmare for wedding videografer ;)
                MOtion Candid CApture
                www.houseofmocca.com
                Indonesia

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                • #23
                  Fukly,

                  You can film in 720p instead of using 1080i ... nobody will be able to tell the difference ... and your computer will thank you for that as well. 4 times less data to process at 720p compared with 1080i.

                  I doubt you see SxS or P2 cards being produced in Taiwan or China ... for starters, the P2 cards uses 4 SDHC cards inside that are ZERO DEFECT chips ... that is why it is so expensive. That's top of the cream chips.
                  TingSern
                  --------------------------------------
                  Edius 9.4 Pro, Lenovo P72 workstation laptop, 64GB RAM, Xeon CPU, Windows 10 Pro (64 bits), 2 x 2TB Samsung M2.NVME and 1 x 4TB Samsung SSD internal. Panasonic UX180 camera, Blackmagic 4K Pocket Cinema, Blackmagic Pocket Cinema

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                  • #24
                    Fukly,

                    Two quick things. With SxS, or P2, you wouldn't actually need to buy as many cards to get through one day of shooting. That's the beauty of the tapeless workflow. You've got two card slots and depending on the format and the shooting mode, you could be talking about over an hour per single card. You offload cards inbetween shooting to a laptop, or you take out one card when it fills up and hand it to an assistant to offload to a laptop while you never miss a beat recording. But, yeah, you would need at least two, preferably 3 cards per camera.

                    Anyways... the other thing:

                    As great a camera in terms of footage quality as the EX1 appears to be, I would not recommend it for wedding filming. The reason being b/c it uses a CMOS sensor which has a rolling shutter. When the photographers are flashing their cameras, it will create a nasty partial exposure effect whenever their camera flash goes off. There are other side effects of rolling shutters, as well such as skew and wobble with fast camera movements, but the partial exposure from camera flashes/strobe lights, etc... would be the main one to worry about and is why I would not recomment the Ex1 for weddings. I hear the workflow is actually quite different from the P2 workflow (not as robust... i.e. doesn't take advantage of many of the things that tapeless can offer in terms of workflow improvements), but only know this as second hand information and that's beside the point.

                    P2 and SxS will continue to get cheaper and quantities will continue to get larger. A little over a year ago, when I got my cams, 8 gig P2 cards were 1250 bucks or so. Now, you can get 16gig cards for around 850-900 bucks. So, just in the last year, quantities have tripled (now that 32 gig cards are out) and the price per gig is about 3 times cheaper than what it was a year ago... Look for that trend to continue. P2 has pretty massive penetration in the broadcast industry, and some other companies have announced plans to make 3rd party P2 cards as well (Kodak or Fuji being one of them, I think?), and that will help prices go down even more. One would hope the same would be true for SxS, but Sony has had a habit of making things proprietary in the past and charging more. AVC-HD for example. Jointly developed by Sony and Panasonic, and now every camera manufacturer but Sony use the same brand of AVC-HD. Sony made their own proprietary non-compatible version. Hopefully that model will change with them in the future. It's that model that took me from Vegas to EDIUS when I bought into the P2 workflow.

                    Though, I know that Sony is the company of choice in Indonesia :)

                    Later,
                    Jason
                    HVX/P2/DVCPRO HD. EDIUS Broadcast 4.54

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      There are also a couple of other problems with Sony EX1 ....

                      a) You will have real trouble handholding the EX1 with one hand. The shape and balance of the camera is way out.

                      b) The microphone sticks out 2" from the lens - you can't put an external hood on it - and prevents top loading filters from going in. If you need filters, you need a side loading one.

                      c) If you want to preview your shots after you take them, Panasonic HVX202 takes 2 seconds to switch over from camera mode to preview mode. Sony EX1 takes 14 seconds. And to the camera to record again, HVX202 takes 2 seconds. EX1 takes 16 seconds.

                      These are things nobody will tell you unless try the camera out yourself.

                      *******
                      I will go for AVC-Intra and not AVC-HD ...
                      TingSern
                      --------------------------------------
                      Edius 9.4 Pro, Lenovo P72 workstation laptop, 64GB RAM, Xeon CPU, Windows 10 Pro (64 bits), 2 x 2TB Samsung M2.NVME and 1 x 4TB Samsung SSD internal. Panasonic UX180 camera, Blackmagic 4K Pocket Cinema, Blackmagic Pocket Cinema

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                      • #26
                        I have some caveats with the EX1 too, the body design is weird...but one upside is that it uses 35mbps instead of 100mbps of DVCPROHD 1080, so on a 16GB card you can shoot more. Of course there are downsides, color space, long gop, etc.

                        I am still waiting for NAB. If anyone is willing to wait until NAB to see what the competition is cooking up, I'd suggest that you guys wait.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Now I have read numerous posts from the HVX people, about the lack of quality in the Sony codec.
                          For two years now I have been shooting with Sony PDW F330 35mbit HD on Blue-Ray and edited in Edius.
                          I do all kind of work, including one frame clip, and massive use of effect filters.
                          The problems in cutting one frame at the time SIMPLY DOES NOT EXISTS.
                          Regarding the 4:2:0 versus 4:2:2, I have tried both, and I can’t see the difference, maybe because Sony has twice as many pixels to play with!!

                          When I bought my new camera I spent a lot of time digging into the problems regarding the difference formats. The HVX200 is a great camera but I took it of the list of possibilities, because of the tested lack of resolution, and the lack of a safe archive media. A hard drive is in my world, not safe.

                          The perfect camera will be 4:4:4 uncompressed 1920x1080 50P and so cheap memory cards, that you will use them for long term archiving.
                          The real world, is unfortunately, full of compromises.

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                          • #28
                            Ha ha ha ... 4:4:4 uncompressed at 1920 x 1080 50p - care to calculate the terabytes of memory you will need to store that video?
                            TingSern
                            --------------------------------------
                            Edius 9.4 Pro, Lenovo P72 workstation laptop, 64GB RAM, Xeon CPU, Windows 10 Pro (64 bits), 2 x 2TB Samsung M2.NVME and 1 x 4TB Samsung SSD internal. Panasonic UX180 camera, Blackmagic 4K Pocket Cinema, Blackmagic Pocket Cinema

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by The Dane View Post
                              Now I have read numerous posts from the HVX people, about the lack of quality in the Sony codec.
                              For two years now I have been shooting with Sony PDW F330 35mbit HD on Blue-Ray and edited in Edius.
                              I do all kind of work, including one frame clip, and massive use of effect filters.
                              The problems in cutting one frame at the time SIMPLY DOES NOT EXISTS.
                              Regarding the 4:2:0 versus 4:2:2, I have tried both, and I can’t see the difference, maybe because Sony has twice as many pixels to play with!!

                              When I bought my new camera I spent a lot of time digging into the problems regarding the difference formats. The HVX200 is a great camera but I took it of the list of possibilities, because of the tested lack of resolution, and the lack of a safe archive media. A hard drive is in my world, not safe.

                              The perfect camera will be 4:4:4 uncompressed 1920x1080 50P and so cheap memory cards, that you will use them for long term archiving.
                              The real world, is unfortunately, full of compromises.
                              The Sony does not have "twice" the pixel count of the DVCPROHD codec. The DVCPROHD codec is a good codec, I think you're confusing a tiny 1/3" camera to a 1/2" ENG camera, and in this regard they are not really comparable.

                              Try comparing a HPX2000 (Even an HPX500, which is considered to be the big brother the HVX200 with a lower resolution than HPX2000) to a F330 see if you notice a difference now ;)

                              4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 (or even 4:1:1) is not a mute argument, but rather a real argument. If Sony raised the mbps to lets say 75mbps, they might have been able to squeeze out 4:2:2 at 1440x1080. I think they're stubborn with sticking to MPEG2, even alot of their Blu-ray releases seem to be MPEG2 (Though this is changing). MPEG2 is a good codec, but too old and inefficient.

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                              • #30
                                I asked a simple question.... and look what has happened:)
                                tdtinker
                                tdtinker
                                3 Edit Systems all running widows 10: 1 Intel Core i7 3770K 3.5GHz Quad Core 8MB 77W Edius 8.5 Vistitler 2.6.0 Window 10-12 GB-
                                1 i7 QUAD CORE 920 2.66GHz 8MB 130W Overclocked to at least 3.5GHz Edius 7.51
                                New system: Asus X99 i7 6900K 3.2GHz, 32GB DDR 4 Ram, GTX 1070
                                Edius 8.5
                                www.actvp.com

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