Edius Suddenly Acting Bizarre -- Jerky Playback in Overlay and Audio Drift

[OneQuickSix]

I have been using Edius since version 1 and and am currently on Version 7, and have never had these problems. I have tried to figure out what may have changed on my system, and am dumbfounded at this point. Here is what is happening, and I would greatly appreciate any help getting things back to normal:

1. Getting stuttering -- as in not smooth playback -- especially noticeable during a tracking or panning shot. Verified it is definitely not in the recording, used multiple sources, file-types, and frame rates. Project always matches file frame rates. Never had this happen before. It is also happening on my external monitor (via HDMI). Used to get flawless playback (or as close to flawless an overlay can be anyway.)
   
   
2. Also, now video is going out of sync with audio. Will start out fine, but then the video drifts out of sync … usually within 10 seconds (or less), and gradually gets worse. (The video is lagging the audio.) NEVER had sync issues before. Tested with a project with dialogue that I edited back over the summer, and know it was fine, but now it is not. So it is not the files, etc. It is something with Edius/computer.
   
3. Finally, also notice that even though the buffer is very healthy (in most instances COMPLETELY FULL), the timeline will start filling with the red bars indicating that rendering is needed. This definitely is not right. This is so bizarre.

So ... here is what I have tried and notes/thoughts on the issue to hopefully save any back-and-forth on diagnoses:

• All of this just came out of the clear blue, definitely did NOT have these issues before. And it is happening in Edius 6.08 as well, so it’s not an Edius 7 issue as I originally suspected. And it is NOT because they are both installed, as I have had both installed for a LONG time, with zero issues. I am also noticing the stuttering video overlay problem on 2 of my 3 monitors when playing in various media players. HOWEVER, the monitor that does not exhibit a problem (main monitor with task bar) does still exhibit the problem in Edius.
  
• This is leading me to believe it is an overlay issue. I don't think a GPU driver update is the culprit, however, because this driver is over a year old. But possible it was corrupted I guess, but display, games, etc. are fine save for the aforementioned playback on secondary monitors -- suspect that MIGHT be an issue with their connection types possibly.
  
• It’s not overclocking related, turned that off.
  
• It’s not the HD (RAID-0), nothing with that has changed. Checked drive speed, and it jives with others' reported speeds with RAID-0 caviar black drives in all categories (Seq, 512, 4k, etc.)
  
• Just to be sure, I copied a project to one of my SSD drives ... made no difference on all fronts/problems.
  
• No excessive CPU usage (practically nil), disabled a number of background services/processes. Don't believe I can run Edius in safe mode right? Since it uses basic gpu drivers, no?
  
• This is happening with any codec/format, including HQX (which I mostly use for everything and no problems before.)
  
• No latency issues detected (average sub-100, occasional spike to ~200 - 300)
  
• Probably a bunch of other things I can't remember at the moment, but am open to other suggestions, and this post is getting really long. :)

Thank you to anyone taking the time to read this, and I appreciate your input/insight.

[BernH]

It the footage a different format than you usually use?

If it is a new video format, it may be something that your 2nd gen system is not up to the task of decoding. You haven't stated anything about the actual media, project settings, etc.

If it isn't a different format, and this is a spontaneous issue, you likely either have corrupted software or failing hardware.

The software could be drivers, windows, edius, c+ redistributables, etc. It could also be a new piece of software interfering somehow.

Hardware could be drives, CPU, RAM, GPU, motherboard etc.

I would suggest that you start by using a can of compressed air to blow out all the fans in the system, including CPU and GPU to potentially eliminate thermal issues, and thile in there, have a look to see if there are any swollen or leaking capacitors on the motherboard. if the problems still exists re-seat all cards, cables, RAM, etc. and if still having an issue, start re-installing drivers, then edius if required. If none of that works, you may be in need of a fresh windows install.

Trial and error is likely the only way you will figure this out if nothing has changed in software or media.

All of what I have stated is just basic troubleshooting procedures. More information about media format and project settings is also required to know if these steps are required.

[antonsvideo]

can I see a screenshot of project settings with everything visible

what is driving the external monitor via HDMI? GV Card? BM Card? Matrox Card?

[OneQuickSix]

It the footage a different format than you usually use?

If it is a new video format, it may be something that your 2nd gen system is not up to the task of decoding. You haven't stated anything about the actual media, project settings, etc.

If it isn't a different format, and this is a spontaneous issue, you likely either have corrupted software or failing hardware.<snip>

No, sorry meant to post that about the format(s) (will addend) ... this is occurring with HQX in the "test" project which has, of course, always been fine, but it is happening with any format.

I clean my system once a month (which is overkill considering there is almost never any dust) and it idles in the low 20C's (motherboard) and ~35C for the CPU, under load hits about 51C on the CPU.

Also checked latency ... hovers sub-100, with occasional spike to 200 or so. Well with in norms.

I was hoping someone had experience this before and was like "oh yeah, that happens when X is X". (I know wishful thinking) The thought of tracking down a software conflict practically makes me break out in hives, plus I just don't have the time at the moment. But thanks for the input.

[OneQuickSix]

can I see a screenshot of project settings with everything visible

what is driving the external monitor via HDMI? GV Card? BM Card? Matrox Card?

Sure, but WHICH project ... this happens in every project with various settings. I'll just post a couple, if you need to see more, let me know.

As far as the external monitor, as I said, it is via HDMI. Did not previously have issues, but this is also happening on the overlay in the main window on the main system monitor.

[OneQuickSix]

Here you go, Anton. I have included the clip properties for this particular project as well. (AVC MP4 ~24Mbps). I have also tested projects that are MP4 MOV, ProRes (various flavors) MOV, DNxHD, and of course HQX. (BTW, this particular project does not utilize sound at all, so no audio is in the timeline. It could very well be drifting, and I'm sure it would, but this project is a side-to-side tracking shot that shows the janky movement.)

[OneQuickSix]

**UPDATE** Mixer &quot;Fixes&quot; the Issue(s)?!?

**UPDATE** Mixer "Fixes" the Issue(s)?!?

OK, so I opened up the mixer, which of course drops the buffer to 5 frames (always has when any channel has TRACK selected) but usually doesn’t effect playback in any negative way unless there are some heavy effects, etc. BUT GET THIS ... The video and audio stayed in sync! The audio did get warbly (like when buffer is drained), but the audio stayed in sync indefinitely (like it should). Red line still appeared, but I believe that is normal for when mixer is open with track engaged selected, I believe. WTH??? Why would that cause it to act normally?

Going to see if it smooths out playback of panned shots, etc. as well. Will update this post.

[BernH]

Your screen shots show 59.94p AVCHD media. This is pretty taxing on a 2nd Gen CPU to decode, but since you say the problem is also happening with HQX media, could you possibly have too much fragmentation on your media drive?

If you do have a lot of media on the drive and have added and deleted a lot over time, it is possible that new media created is too fragmented for the system to read and feed the CPU fast enough. A media drive defrag may help if this is the case.

[OneQuickSix]

Thank, Bern ... but as I mentioned, I tried it using one of my SSD's with that very thought (fragmentation). Doesn't make a difference. (Also, the original video drive is seeing healthy ~200MB/s ... more than enough for any of these codec's data rates.) Finally, not sure why opening up the mixer would make that type of issue go away ... to me it has to be something related to the overlay.

[antonsvideo]

you will get jerky playback via graphics card HDMI, this is how it always has been in EDIUS, especially during pans

you will get smooth playback via a dedicated output card and never via a graphics card

also, a dedicated output card will give proper sound at 48k that is in sync with vision

[OneQuickSix]

I did not have jerky playback on the overlay (at least not this jerky). I can't swear to the HDMI output, and believe you, and have been considering getting a BM output card for some time.

But the sound issue is really bizarre. I am 100% certain there was no drift previously. Also, do you have any idea why invoking the mixer would eliminate the drift. Can corrupted overlay cause this or something?

Either way, I am fairly convinced it has something to do with the overlay.

[antonsvideo]

how are you listening to sound? via motherboard green speaker connector? or via HDMI on the connected TV?

I have never experienced audio going out of sync unless the audio is variable bitrate mp3, so I never use mp3 without converting to wave

can you generate a system report from EDIUS help menu and attach it here

[BernH]

I did not have jerky playback on the overlay (at least not this jerky). I can't swear to the HDMI output, and believe you, and have been considering getting a BM output card for some time.

But the sound issue is really bizarre. I am 100% certain there was no drift previously. Also, do you have any idea why invoking the mixer would eliminate the drift. Can corrupted overlay cause this or something?

Either way, I am fairly convinced it has something to do with the overlay.

I mentioned before that your footage info shot shows 59.94p AVCHD, which is a difficult framerate and codec for a 2nd gen system. Have you run this framerate and codec before? If not, what happens when you go back to 59.94i footage? What are your normal framerates and codecs used?

Assuming this framerate and codec worked fine before and this is a spontaneous failure, let's go back to my first post. ....corrupt drivers/software or failing hardware. Overlay is driven by edius via the GPU driver to the GPU hardware. All of which run in/on windows and have to communicate to each other via the windows hardware abstraction layer (HAL). It is all intertwined. You may think it is simply an overlay issue, which a driver re-install and/or an edius re-install may fix, but it may go deeper into windows.

Opening the mixer may change things, because this too changes the way edius users the buffers, which are a portion of reserved RAM. Edius and buffers are software, RAM is hardware that once again is accessed via Windows and the HAL. Again, all intertwined.

Computers that run Windows in particular have this "intertwined" issue, because software is allowed to share common files. the same dynamic link library file (.dll) may be used in 10 different pieces of software, so most softwares access a shared version of the file. The problem arrises when one software installs a specific .dll version that another software doesn't like. The fix is often to re-install the misbehaving software, as this will put the correct version of the .dll back, and often the software that installed the wrong version will continue to work fine. OS's like OSX, Linux, and BSD are more compartmentalized and generally don't share files between programs in quite the same way.

Spontaneous problems as you are describing are often caused by the things I mentioned. ...corrupt software/drivers/windows, new software interferring because it is either running in the background or has changed shared files to a different version, or failing hardware, but software is usually the first suspect when there isn't obvious hardware failure.

Normal troubleshooting involves re-installing suspect software and/or drivers, and if that doesn't do it a clean windows re-install, unless hardware is suspected, in which case hardware replacement and installing the required drivers usually fixes the issue, but not always. In dire situations, failing hardware can also cause software/windows to get corrupted, in which case you would also need a clean windows re-install. Once again, all intertwined.

Here are my suggestions in order of execution, testing for proper edius operation in between each step.

1. Re-install edius. This takes 5 minutes.

2. Download and run a burn-in test application like Passmark's Burn-in test.
You can select what components (CPU, RAM, GPU, HDD's, Audio, etc.) you want to test and put them under stress to see if they fail. If a component fails, re-install drivers for the failing component and test again to see if this fixes the failure problem. Motherboard chipset drivers will look after CPU, RAM and several other core system drivers. Sometimes simply re-seating components can help. Over time, contacts can develop a residue on them caused by an electro-chemical reaction as electricity passes from one metal contact to the other, or even tarnish from oxidization. Re-seating the components scrapes the contacts clean. Crystal Disk Info can also be valuable to check the S.M.A.R.T. status of your drives, seeing as how we are checking hardware, to see if the drives are truly OK.

3. A clean install of windows, then motherboard chipset drivers, then any other hardware drivers you need, then software

If failure still persists, hardware replacement may be in order.

Once you have a working system with all the required software installed, make a system image using Ghost, Acronis True Image, Macrium Reflect, or CloneZilla. Restoring the system image is a very quick and easy way to get a system up an running again in the exact state it was in when working correctly. Restore takes 20-30 minutes, as opposed to several hours to days. Deactivating software prior to taking the image and prior to restoring the image is recommended so that you don't loose license activations.

You have to be willing to do some of this troubleshooting to find the problem. We would have to do this if we were in front of the system, but we are not, so all we can do is act like detectives and ask questions. If you are uncomfortable doing this kind of stuff, find a system integrator that is used to building NLE systems. If you can't find a system integrator, a good computer tech may also help, but a lot of times the regular computer tech does not have familiarity with the nuances of NLE building. He probaly has the shills needed, but has never dealt with the quirks of an NLE build.

My recommendations come from 35 years of experience building computers in general with about 27 of those years centered around building Professional NLE, DAW, and Graphics Workstations for 15 years at a Pro A/V company and 11 years at a Film and Video Post Production House. I am trained as en Electronics Service Technician and a Computer Service Technician, with a long background (also about 35 years) in the technical aspects of audio and video production and post production also.

Anton's notes about the HDMI from GPU vs. something like a BM or AJA card is correct, partially due to the fact that a GPU is generally designed to run at 60Hz or higher, and video is generally 59.94 or lower. Notice that they don't match. A dedicated Video Output is designed to run at those 59.94 or lower rates.

Anton's notes about MP3's and audio monitoring is also correct. Almost all NLE systems are designed to use 48kHz audio (48kHz is the standard sample rate for audio when used with video). Anything that is not a standard 48kHz sample rate can cause audio drift.

Without seeing your problem and running some tests, or you running the tests, it is hard to offer more information.

[edver1]

Anton

you will get jerky playback via graphics card HDMI, this is how it always has been in EDIUS

This is the first time I see someone calling the bull by its name !
I have asked this question on several fora,and never gave me a direct answer !
To me this is unknown material ( the card ) is the connection by SDI or Thunderbolt or display port or .... ?
Do You have a brand in mind,or can You recommend one ?
Thx
Edd

[Jerry]

I'm sorry for the length of this post.


Deciding what card to buy depends on a several things.


1. Let's ask the big question first: How much are you willing to spend?

This is the big question and in many cases, and unfortunately, will be the determining factor.
If you are fine with 1080 25/30p and UHD 30p, then prepare to spend at least $200.
As your requirements increase, so does the cost. If you need UHD 50/60p, prepare to spend at least $900.

2. What is the max frame rate that you will be using? Are you
planning on going to a higher frame rate anytime soon?

The higher the frame rate being used, the higher the cost of the card.
For example, You can get a BM Intensity Pro 4K or a BM Decklink Mini Monitor 4K for under $200.
However, for UHD 50/60p you are looking at $895.

3. Will you be doing HDR and/or HFR.

These two items go hand in hand. If you are going to be doing HFR(High Frame Rate) these would be 50/60p you will be looking at a BM Decklink Extreme 12G. This card can do 50/60p out. It also adds HDR with automatic HDR color space switching per project.
You are looking at roughly $900 for this card.
The AJA Kona 5 will do the same. This card lists at $2995.

These cards also require an 8X slot. Many 'Z' system users may not have the lanes to handle these cards. If you are only using a GPU and I/O card in a 'Z' system, you should be good to go.


4. Are you mainly working in HD and planning on going to 4K...or even 8K?

If you are working in HD and don't intend on going to UHD, get either the IP4K or the Decklink Mini Monitor 4K.
Both of these units will do HD @50/60p.

With Edius 9.51, you can use UHD projects and HFR and then under Hardware>Preview Device you can select to Convert to format supported by device. This would mean that using an IP4K or a Mini Monitor 4K would send a 1920x1080 50/59.94p image out to monitor while working in a UHD project.

It's always a crapshoot buying equipment. It's the top of the line today, and replaced with newer and better the next day.
If you are going to make the move to UHD anytime soon and you can afford the HFR cards, go ahead and plan your system accordingly.

With 8K on the horizon, I think the BM 8K card is the only one on the market. It is only $645.
I would wait on this technology to flesh out.

5. What is the interface that you wish to use?

Ok, the prices for PCI-E cards are what I have mentioned here.

If you are going to Thunderbolt, you need to be sure that the TB3 product that you are interested in is indeed supported by Edius and your computer.

Thunderbolt isn't cheap. Since there isn't anything official on Edius World, I'll just give some examples of pricing. This does not mean that it is supported by GV.

1. UltraStudio 4K Mini $995
2. UltraStudio 4K Extreme 3 $2995.
3. AJA Io 4K Plus $2495

As you can see, TP3 isn't cheap.


To sum this up, a $200 card(and up) will get you 1080 60p out to monitor or UHD 30p.
A $900 card(and up) will get you 1080 60p and up to 3840x2160 60p out to monitor. They should be able to do at least DCI 4096x2160 23.98p, 24p, and 25p.
Starting at $1,000, you can step into a UHD TB3 setup with more features than the Decklink Extreme 4K. Once again, contact GV to verify if it will work with 9.51.


This should give anyone looking to add an I/O card some concept of what they should consider.