EX-1 mxf files

[DIGITALPOST]

I recorded a clip with the sony EX-1 in HQ 30p mode.
This is 1920x1080P
Using the sony clip browser software, I export as an mxf file.
I loaded EdiusPro using a NX 1920x 1080i.
This seem to be to closest project setting to use.
I imported the mfx file with no problem and Edius properties read the file correctly.
The file also plays fines < with a prebuffer >.
Its about 4 mins long and a long as I do a quick prebuffer it will play complete.
If I change the project settings to HDV 1440X1080i the file playback looks identical
but it will drain the buffer in about 30 seconds and this is probably due to the mix match
project and file size.
Heres my question. What is the actually output of the NX card?
Is it full 1920x1080i?
It's it 1440X1080 and upscaling to 1920?
I was under the impression that progressive clips needed to be used in progressive
NX projects to display correctly. Is this not the case? If not, why does NX have those
project settings with no real output display differences?
Would it be correct to assume that the project settings really are primary for rendering
and the NX display is not affective by interlace or progressive project settings?
And lastly.... what support for the EX-1 is in version 4.6 that we don't currently have?
It seems that if I export the EX-1 files as mxf... Edius reads them in current build.

[Rusty]

Good to hear Sony footage works in 4.54, I think a new EX-1 is on my b-day wishlist! (soooooon!)

I was under the impression that we couldn't use .mfx until 4.6.

How was conversion with the Sony Browser? Can it export HQ too?

NX currently will display interlaced or progressive 1440X1080, so for preview Edius has to scale your beauiful 1920x 1080... thus the CPU hit. The only full HD is OCHI, but a search here on the forums may show a change in the works.

This is a workflow I can live with for a while.

[GrassValley_KH]

The project setting engages the hardware (if selected) and tells the hardware how to handle the timeline vs video output via HD component.

NX presets will always emit a 60hz or 50hz signal, in interlaced format. Hence, the 'progressive over interlaced' presets for NX. As for output resolution, the NX will always produce a 1920x1080 frame size. EDIUS works with the hardware to scale the project pixel dimensions accordingly.

If your monitor is 1280x720 (e.g. LCD HDTV), the tv will be downscaling the input signal from the NX board's output.

The less conversion EDIUS has to do (with or without a board), the easier the load on the buffer.

As for changes in 4.6 for EX - it's mainly small modifications to XDSelect, and the main application, to read in data from SxS media and decode the MP4 EX-1 container.

[GrassValley_BH]

If I change the project settings to HDV 1440X1080i the file playback looks identical but it will drain the buffer in about 30 seconds and this is probably due to the mix match project and file size.

Yup, sounds right. If you bring a 1920x1080-resolution file into a 1440x1080 timeline, EDIUS has to downsample the 1920 horizontal to 1440 before processing. This causes "extra work" on the CPU.
Thus, the strategy for choosing which project setting to use is the (subjective) better of:

1. The resolution/framerate your final output will be
2. The resolution (and to some degree, though I personally don't recommend it, the framerate) of the majority of your clips

The advantage of #1 is that you get WYSIWYG editing, not taking into account any necessary compression for final output, of course.

The advantage of #2 is increased performance. Since most editors are concerned with the quality of the final results, WYSIWYG wins the argument most times. However, there are quick-turn situations where editing speed is more important than overall quality, or the increase in speed outweighs a slight increase in quality.

Heres my question. What is the actually output of the NX card?
Is it full 1920x1080i?
It's it 1440X1080 and upscaling to 1920?

The 1080i signal is just that - a 1080i signal, so it must be 1920x1080 resolution. How each 1920x1080 frame is created will depend entirely on what your EDIUS project setting is.
If EDIUS is in a 1440x1080 project, the EDIUS hardware board will perform the line-scaling from 1440 to 1920 in hardware, providing a much better-quality image than simple software scaling. The same goes if you're in a 1280x1080 project.
If you're in a full 1920x1080 project, then the output frames from EDIUS are already 1920x1080, so there's no line-scaling involved.

Would it be correct to assume that the project settings really are primary for rendering and the NX display is not affective by interlace or progressive project settings?

Sort-of... You can bring any supported clip type into any project setting. That's the glory of EDIUS's mixed-format capabilities.

That said, if the source clip's framerate or interlacing doesn't match that of the project setting, then EDIUS will need to adjust the clip on-the-fly.

And lastly.... what support for the EX-1 is in version 4.6 that we don't currently have?
It seems that if I export the EX-1 files as mxf... Edius reads them in current build.

The additional "browsing" functionality and background capabilities aren't there when you import a file directly. Clips usually logically consist of multiple separate files. For example, the proxy is a separate file from the essence. Browsing and importing just the files individually doesn't retain the linkage between the logical clip - you're just pulling a file, kind of like pulling a single record out of a database without having the related tables - you lose the relationships. There's other stuff that comes along with the browsing capability as well - like background transfers, which the folks using non-EX XDCAM and P2 are already using.

[DIGITALPOST]

NX will always produce a 1920x1080 frame size. EDIUS works with the hardware to scale the project pixel dimensions accordingly.

So, Rusty's comment about the NX hardware scaling 1920x1080 down to 1440incorrect?
Also, what happens with 24p files? The NX can write 3 different frame sizes at 24p. < 1920 - 1440 - 720 >

Does the NX do the pulldown in hardware to display when a project is set to 24p?

Will there be a NX project setting for 1920 24p in the 4.6 build?

What happens to the display when you mix match frame rates.
< like adding a 24p clip into a 29.97 or a 29.97 into a 24p project?

Thanks for the quick answers.
BTW Rusty.... there is only one export option < MXF > in the Sony Clip Browser app. But you can select a whole range of clips and convert to MXF
in a batch. Then you could even convert to canopus HQ from edius filebin.
I think this would give you a HQ clip from EX-1 in its native 1920 size.
Having an option in PE or some other type of conversion to batch convert
down to 1440 canopus HQ as a proxy < that would be amazing proxie quality!! > would give us the "real time editing" that we all have been experiencing for the last few years!
I have a dual 3.6 and while canopus 1440HQ can play 3 to 4 layers with various processing, the EX-1 MFX 1920 file can only play 1.
I've yet to do any real radical testing between the HQ and SD bit rates of the camera... but I'm sure more is better!

[GrassValley_BH]

So, Rusty's comment about the NX hardware scaling 1920x1080 down to 1440incorrect?

If the project is sending out full 1920x1080, it'll go out the NX hardware unscaled.

Also, what happens with 24p files? The NX can write 3 different frame sizes at 24p. < 1920 - 1440 - 720 >

Files are output at native framerate. File output is independent of the hardware video output.

Does the NX do the pulldown in hardware to display when a project is set to 24p?

It's done somewhere in the process - I'm not sure how/where it's done though.

I have a dual 3.6 and while canopus 1440HQ can play 3 to 4 layers with various processing, the EX-1 MFX 1920 file can only play 1.
I've yet to do any real radical testing between the HQ and SD bit rates of the camera... but I'm sure more is better!

Yeah, it doesn't seem like it is, but full 1920x1080 is significantly more data to process than 1440x1080. 518,400 more pixels per frame!

[Rusty]

If the project is sending out full 1920x1080, it'll go out the NX hardware unscaled.

Thanks BH, I stand corrected. So is 1920x1080 from NX a Broadcast-only thing? Or am I missing something in Pro?

[GrassValley_BH]

Depends what version of EDIUS you have - I don't remember exactly when it appeared, but 1920x1080 Full HD wasn't there to begin with.

It should be available in both Pro and Broadcast though.

[DIGITALPOST]

Had some time tonight to play with EX-1, bitrate and codec's.
Not very clinical....
I set up a scene lit with some flo lights.
It was a few tequila bottles in a gift pack with gold Sauza and nice limey colored Mix bottle next to it.
I added a Clorox Wipes plastic container next to it because the label had some rich blue and reds.
Background was black.
My basic camera settings were -3db gain - F6.7 < even 0db was clean so you can imagine how nice -3 is.
I recorded a 20second clip at both HQ 35megabit 1920 and SP25megabit 1440 modes .
Putting them back to back on the TL they look exactly the same.< sweet >
This was a static shot so not really a test to push the codec, but I was looking for any additional noise or
other changes but could not fine any.
My real test was to be with playback in Edius with NX.
I used just the SP 1440x1080i clip to test in the HDV NX preset.
After converting the raw 21second clip to MXF with the Sony Clip Browser the file size was 71,578 kb.
I loaded the clip 3 times layered. 1 background , and 2 2dPIPs.
I have to prebuffer to get it to play and it would fill the buffer and quit at 17 seconds.
< just to note.. a single MXF layer will play pretty much forever BUT it always needs a prebuffer kick start on my dual 3.6 >
Ok.... I converted that same file in the bin to HQ mode.
The file size jumped to 399,935 KB!
But converting to HQ canopus codec gave me back all the RT I was used to and again... it looked identical to the MXF.
I could now drop this on the TL and play instantly without buffering and it would hold forever.
I was able to load 5 layers 1 background and 4 2D PIP's and get the same results with a prebuffer. < about 17 seconds >
This is an important factor for me when editing projects.
Especially the fact that even single layers of 1440 MXF's need a prebuffer before playing back - a big slowdown in
the workflow IMO.
While the file size quadruples with canopus HQ codec, it opens a beautiful real time work flow. With storage prices so cheap
this will be the way to go for many projects as long as the drop from 1920 to 1440 frame size doesn't take a huge quality hit.
I'll have to do some more testing to be sure. Recording at full 1920 and somehow having the option to convert to 1440 canopus HQ
would be a cool option. Is that possible with the pro version of Procoder? Add it in the Edius version!

[GrassValley_BH]

A very well stated case!

The Canopus HQ codec lets you leverage time versus storage. Since you can't buy extra time for cheap, but you can buy extra storage for fairly cheap, it's pretty good!

On your ProCoder question - neither PCE for EDIUS nor the full ProCoder 3 supports MXF files, so at least for now if you want to convert, you're stuck doing it in EDIUS.

I'm pushing for the AVCHD Converter and EDIUS Watch to get merged into a more generic whatever-to-HQ watch folder util, but I'm no genie, so it will take time - no matter how much storage you throw my way. :)

[DIGITALPOST]

Thanks Brandon... The workflow is so important once you get used to it. Using the NX hardware for over 2 years - we could never go backwards!
I'm trying to think of a good way to use Canopus HQ as a real time proxy advantage. We all know how well it works in HDV 1440 rez.
Tell me if any workflow ideas come to mind.

Ok, most of us that bought the EX-1 will always want to record in 1920 - 35 megabit mode. So if we:
record full 1920 file and use sony browser to export to MFX < so edius reads >

load MFX's into Edius bin and convert to canopus HQ < for best RT while editing>

When done editing, what would be the simplest way to replace the HQ files with the original MXF's for a final render?
I know moving/deleting the HQ's would bring up a dialog box to replace the files it can no longer find, but that would be for each file.
Any global way of doing this that comes to mind?
Thanks

[pjsssss]

When done editing, what would be the simplest way to replace the HQ files with the original MXF's for a final render?

While I understand the impulse to have a native format, I am wondering if the time used is worth it since HQ is such a pristine codec?

[GrassValley_BH]

Hmm... AFAIK with v4.6's XDCAM EX support you won't need to use the Sony Browser at all (though it does need the software/drivers installed) so EDIUS will "know what do" for the clips.

This means that if you want to work with proxy clips, it'll be the same as current XDCAM workflow. You could tell XDSelect not to download the HiRes essence and just edit with the proxy files (you can also force HiRes download if you want), and when you export, EDIUS will prompt you whether to use the proxy data for rendering or if it should download the essence before rendering.

That said, HQ could still be a good preview mechanism for "full(er)" resolution editing. The issue would be that the metadata gets lost when the clip isn't MXF-originated at that point.

For single-file clips (self-contained MXFs), the Clip Replace would work, but there's no way to say "replace ___.AVI with ___.MXF" that I'm aware of - it expects the same file name, and requires the same framerate at the very least.

An "assign proxy" function to assign a proxy clip to a Bin clip may be useful. Something to add to the Feature Requests if you think this would make sense. :)

[DIGITALPOST]

"This means that if you want to work with proxy clips, it'll be the same as current XDCAM workflow. You could tell XDSelect not to download the HiRes essence and just edit with the proxy files (you can also force HiRes download if you want), and when you export, EDIUS will prompt you whether to use the proxy data for rendering or if it should download the essence before rendering."

The EX-1 doesn't create proxy files like the current XDCAM format.
I think your assign proxy idea could work, or if only PCE could read mxf's and allow option for frame size and rate!