AVI HQX vs MOV HQX

[Artimedia]

Hi,

I have just a short question: Is there any difference in terms of quality between exporting .mov or .avi Canopus HQX from Edius? Are they both 10 bit 4:2:2? Do they both support millions of colors and alpha channel?

What about when exporting from other apps like Adobe After Effects? Does .avi and .mov have the exact same quality there?

Thanks,

Miguel

[Jerry]

Why not use DNxHD out of AE instead of having the hassle with HQX? DNxHD has the same RT properties as HQX within Edius and is more universally accepted.

[Artimedia]

Quality is the same- AVI or MOV is just a container, but....

If you want to use it in After Effects than use MOV. If you tweak Adobe codecs rules xml file than you can write 10bit HQX MOVs out of AE (you have to choose Trillion Colors).

Search for something like: HQX After Effects 10bit- I've posted instructions.

I believe you are talking about this post: http://forum.grassvalley.com/forum/s...8&postcount=11

I use After Effects CS6, but when I tried to edit 'MediaCoreQTCodecRulesCS6.xml' and 'AE_MediaCoreQTCodecRulesCS6.xml', that I found at 'User\appdata\Roaming\Adobe\Common'... I noticed that the code at

codec='ap4h' and platform='windows'

was already

deepdecodefourcc='b64a' decodefourcc='argb'

both for encode and decode directions. So, it seemed like there was nothing to be changed and that it was already set as it should for "Trillions of Colors" to show up at the codec options for QT HQX on AE Output Module. But it doesn't... Only "Millions of Colors" shows up as option.

Why not use DNxHD out of AE instead of having the hassle with HQX? DNxHD has the same RT properties as HQX within Edius and is more universally accepted.

Quite frankly, I didn't know that in terms of performance DNxHD was the same as HQX inside Edius. Why have a proprietary codec then?.. Also, DNxHD doesn't allow me to export in resolutions higher than HD and I'm currently working in 2K DCI (2048x1080). So that would be DNxHR, correct?

[Artimedia]

Ok, so I think I did everything right but still can't see more than Million Colors +.

I don't have a MediaCoreQTCodecRulesCC 20xx.xml... I have a MediaCoreQTCodecRulesCS6.xml AND a AE_MediaCoreQTCodecRulesCS6.xml. they seem identical in content (or very similar and both are 41k size).

Also... They are not located at [drive]\Users\[user_name]\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\... But rather at [drive]\Users\[user_name]\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Common.

I copy/pasted those two lines of code to both XML files but after restarting AE, nothing changed. I also tried typing chqx lower case.

Don't rely on import/export over MOV as this if not going to be 10bit and have color/gamma problems.

You mean this for HQX too?... Or are you just talking about DNxHD?..
Do you mean that without MXF option the DNxHD is not any good?... And what do you mean by "still no DNxHR"? I don't have a MXF option and I do have DNxHR...

[Artimedia]

Are you on PC, as this is for PC!

PC, of course. I've been an Edius user since 2001 when I bought the DV Storm.

When you import DNxHD (eg. 175x mode) file, go to properties and check in last tab- does it say 10bit or 8bit?

DNxHR doesn't even have a YUV Depth parameter, as it has in HQX. So it doesn't say the bit depth. But what's most strange is that even the clip I rendered with QT HQX Millions of Colors, shows in the properties with YUV Depth = 10!.. Shouldn't it be just 8 if it was rendered with Millions of Colors??...

Delete both xml files and let AE create new one. It should be in Common folder, so path in initial post is not fully correct (or Adobe changed it). Sometimes AE creates own xml and Premiere/AME another one. Change in both.

I deleted them and let AE create a new one. It created one beginning with AE_... I don't have a clue why it had two because I never had Premiere installed or any other Adobe video app. This time it worked. I now have the Trillion Colors option.

I am now going to render 4 clips: HQX 10 bit (Trillions of colors), HQX Millions of colors, DNxHD and DNxHR (10 bit although it even has a 12 bit option).

I'll post the results here for the Properties window in Edius.

[Jerry]

DNxHD, quicktime based, is more reliable in Edius 8 than you think it is.

[Artimedia]

I will do all these tests you suggest. For now it's strange because when I bring the rendered clips to AE and look at the properties in the Project window, DNxHD says "trillion colors" while DNxHR which is supposed to be superior and has better image detail (at least visually) says "millions of colors". In fact in the Output Module window, only DNxHD has an option for Trillions of colors. DNxHR has only Millions as option. However DNxHR has greater data rate and looks better.

I'll do all these tests. I really want to make sure I preserve as much as my image quality as I start with Adobe DNG 12bit 444 and want to have a format which can reach Edius with at least 10bit so that, I can then export Edius HQX 10bit back to other apps like AE for SFX. My work flow is a bit strange because I grade DNG first in Adobe Camera Raw (AE) and then export to Edit in Edius and then back to AE for SFX.

My projects are 10bit in Edius and 16bit in AE. I'm working in 2K at this point.

BTW: Should I export DNxHD and DNxHR in RGB or 709 color space?
BTW2: I just noticed that even when I render QT HQX in AE and then bring the clip to the project window, it reads Trilions of colors even if I have rendered it with Millions of Colors. Isn't this a bit crazy???...

[Artimedia]

So, what we see in the project window only describes what the codec is capable of. I understand. I just edited the XML and now DNxHR shows as millions of colors and has that option in the Output Module.

So you mean that I should render my DNG in AE, exporting it as HQX, or as AAF proxy? But please bear in mind that most of the times I do not use Resolve or Scratch. I just use Adobe Camera Raw (native in AE) to grade DNG. So if I can do the grading either on import to AE or after the round trip from Edius to AE back again. I'm sorry but I'm not too familiar with proxy workflow so, I may be misunderstanding things.

Also... What is the difference between exporting DNxHR as 709 or RGB. which is the better color space for keeping color information accurate and with as little degradation as possible?

[Artimedia]

Ok, thanks. that works for most my worflows as I'm not going to do much masking or keyframing in the grading process.

However in cases where I may need to use Scratch or Resolve for more complex grading what's the best workflow in terms of Exports and Proxy, in order to:

1. Do a first grading in ACR (AE)
2. Export to Edius for editing.
3. Round trip back to AE so that the editing reflects on the DNG files.

something similar to this, but using Edius: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTyl7t0DdQs

One of the greatest pains is that as far as I know, no software exports DNG. Lots of them open DNG but then won't export. Edius, AE and Resolve are amongst them. Of course I understand that DNG is not an editing format and you can edit in proxies and then link back to DNG. But you can't for instance Debayer in Adobe Camera Raw (supposing you prefer it for the initial color grading) and then export it to Resolve for finishing. Or vice versa... also impossible.

[Artimedia]

Ok, thanks a lot! I do lots of SFX, thus my interest in being able to composite with the highest possible image quality.

[Artimedia]

So here it goes, I made the following tests:

As you well know I have edited the AE XML so that both HQX and DNxHR export 10Bit. I created a radial Ramp Effect in AE on a 16Bit Project and rendered 3 clips:

a) DNxHR 10bit (Trillion of colors) RGB
b) HQX 10Bit (Trillion of colors)
c) HQX 8Bit (Million of colors)
d) DNxHD 10Bit (Trillion of colors) RGB

I imported them to Edius and applied a YUV Curves filter to which I tweaked the curves really bad. Here are 4 BMPs I rendered out of Edius (Project 10Bit). I believe we can clearly see that DNxHR 10Bit and HQX 10Bit are on par in terms of how smooth the gradient is. They are basically identical. The HQX 8bit noticeably starts to band in the gradient. However, the DNxHD 10Bit performs way worse than the HQX 8Bit.

http://www.artimedia.pt/DNxHR_10Bit.bmp

http://www.artimedia.pt/HQX_10Bit.bmp

http://www.artimedia.pt/HQX_8Bit.bmp

http://www.artimedia.pt/DNxHD_10Bit.bmp

So my verdict at this point would be DNxHR 10Bit or HQX 10Bit all the way. HQX 8Bit bands for obvious reasons but forget DNxHD!!!.. even at 10Bit it behaves way worse than HQX 8Bit.

Are there any other relevant tests I could do to compare HQX and DNxHR?

[Artimedia]

I'm sorry: I have corrected my post and the files too. I noticed I had made a different setting in the curves, thus the difference in the DNxHR. now I just dragged the effects from one file to another so that they were totally identical. You can now see that there is no color difference.

I will do the tests you now suggest and will get back here. I could use some Cinema DNG shot by my Kinefinity camera 12bit RAW 444 but I'll use the footage from your link.

Also, I don't seem to have a v210 format option for QT in my AE... Only for AVI and Edius won't accept it.

EDIT: I noticed we need to send DCI some kind of form to apply for downloading the files. Is that correct?

EDIT2: I added a second different YUV curve and it made it even more noticeable how much worse DNxHD is and how perfectly identical, DNxHR and HQX 10Bit seem to behave. I'll do the tests with my own RAW footage for now.

[Artimedia]

I have AME but I suppose I cannot do a Ramp there. :)
I can use for a test with my footage though, if it imports DNG. Edit - No it doesn't... Maybe it's for being CS6?..

I noticed there's something else I don't have: The KeyDifference filter. Only Chromakey, LuminanceKey and Track Matte. I don't yet have Edius 8 though. Maybe it's only in more recent versions. I am currently working with 7... Maybe that's why.

[Artimedia]

But you can convert avi 10bit to MOV :)

LOL yeah of course. I've found the difference key. I'll post the results soon.

[Artimedia]

Ok I also do not have v210 for QT in AME. Will Uncompressed YUV 10Bit 422 do the trick? Is it the same thing?

Anyway... I now noticed that the AE v210 avi export won't allow higher resolutions than Full HD. I'll have to re-render all the other clips resizing them to HD, otherwise the test won't work.