down converting hd to sd

Anton,

Thank you very much for trying out the footage as well! I think the focus must have been off in some way when shooting that clip, I dont know if i was trying out some settings att that point in time(this summer) and maybe i had the focus on manual and screwed up that shoot...
Its shot with a Canon HV20 camera, maybe your Sony DXC-D35WSP is better cause its a more high end camera even if you shoot it in SD... or maybe i have been doing something with the settings in the HV20 camera that i should have...

Jerry,

Its not that Im not going to try what you suggested, I will, its just that I want to know how it should be, and if I dont get a better quality from the HD shot then from the SD shot, then I have probably done something wrong. So I just wanted to know how it was supposed to be, so i dont lie to myself when trying it out...Im still trying to learn some here as i dont have enough experience on the subject.

For the view on my plasma, I will go and buy a HDMI cable today and see what diffrence that will make.

Thank you guys again!

//Perra

[Jerry]

And when it comes to shooting in HD contra SD, its not that I want to shoot in SD, I definitely rather shoot in HD, as I might want to transfer my clips to a HD disc in the future. The reason I asked this was just to get confirmed IF it would be better to shoot in SD, as I dont know if Im doing something wrong in either conversion. But as you answered me previously, I should continue shooting in HDV, and I will. I just had to know what was the best way...

Don't let me tell you which way to shoot. Try it for yourself. See the difference. It doesn't take that much time to do the test I mentioned in the last post. That way you can see the difference for yourself. It will give you
a starting point from which to work.

But while shooting keep a close watch on your focus. The fudge factor for HD is a whole lot less than SD. Use the peaking and Magnify function on your camera and possibly keep a good focus chart nearby.

Also, keep in mind that your 42" plasma probably doesn't have a good upconvertor built in. This can give you shimmering and dancing images.
I have found that my HDDVD player through the HDMI cable does a really good job of upconverting. It still is like putting am signal on an fm carrier, but it looks pretty good at a normal distance. Keep that in mind as well.
If you are standing right at the display you will see all of the artifacting going on. Sit back about 8-10 feet and judge it from there.

[antonsvideo]

I have a 42" Plasma connected via component cable and all your footage looks fine

the only thing I noticed is that your original HDV clip does not look sharper than my SD clips coming from Sony DXC-D35WSP with Fujinon lens

also, I noticed that the kids (foreground) were slightly out of focus but the background was focused

Jerry,
Im playing it back on my plasma 42" and my projector (LCD), but as i said prev. i dont have a good connection from my DVD player to the plasma so I cant really judge the results from that, I will buy a hdmi cable soon to make up for that loss of quality. So no CRTs involved. But I will take my material to someone that has got a LCD set and see if I get the same results... But I will try and go back on the sharpness and see what happens too on my current display devices.

And when it comes to shooting in HD contra SD, its not that I want to shoot in SD, I definitely rather shoot in HD, as I might want to transfer my clips to a HD disc in the future. The reason I asked this was just to get confirmed IF it would be better to shoot in SD, as I dont know if Im doing something wrong in either conversion. But as you answered me previously, I should continue shooting in HDV, and I will. I just had to know what was the best way...
Its not that important about the computer power, i want the best possible quality, even if it takes some extra time editing and or converting the footage. So I will stick in the HD world... :)

Im sorry i dont mean to blame Encore, its was more a question cause i had read that there might be a problem with encore, and asked about it. And the "problem" could very well be me doing the wrong settings in encore, IF it was a problem. But it wasnt so far as the results from encore have given me the same results as with some other tool. So sorry, I didnt mean to blame anyone here...

//Perra

[Jerry]

So that makes me wonder, IF im just going to output the movies to SD DVD, will it always be a better result shooting in 720x576i directly, so i dont have to deal with the downconversion....? When we bought the HDV camera, i thought that shoot in the best possible(what was affordable) and it would give me a DVD that was really good... but maybe i should start filming in 576i instead?!

I saw someone (maybe you) that said something about haveing problems with Encore as authering program, maybe that makes some of theese probs as well...

Are you playing this on a CRT televison. You will notice shimmer on CRT's more than on LCD or Plasma. I get that if the tube is set with too much sharpening added. Try rolling off the sharp button a little and see if that reduces the flickering.


If you are so all fired up to shoot in a lower standard, go right ahead.
Why don't you try that anyway. You have asked this before.
Shoot the same subject in HD and in SD and make a DVD out of both. If you do it right the DVD mastered from a high definition image will be better by far, than the straight SD workflow ( shot in DV not betacam or digibeta).
Your other option is to import the HD file into a standard timeline and try that.
The other method would be to have the camera do the downconversion and capture as SD. You will see an increase in computer power while editing, but the image will be of lesser quality.

Encore will not cause the shimmering. This is due to the acutal footage and type of conversion. The only way it would have an effect is if you do the transcoding within Encore and pick the wrong settings. Personally, Encore works great for me, on two completely different machines. Many others on this board use it as well. I would not be so hasty on trying to blame Encore
for your problems.

If you are using stills and you are getting shimmering or flickering edges, all that means is that you did not prepare the photo properly.
The same goes for the video.

Since Barry played your files, without shimmer on his lcd, you might want to take that dvd to someone with an LCD television(not computer monitor) and try playback there.

Barry,
Ok then I will have to try another place for playback as well, i have a plasma 42" TV but i dont have a suitable connection at the moment for making a fair check on quality(SCART) . I have tried it on my Hitachi PJ TX200 projector as well, and when i can see shimmering is on the ground on the "stones" ( i dont know the name for small stones as is on the ground behind William, as well as where you said :) ) But maybe its just my playback devices thats not up to the task of displaying it good enough, I use a Marantz DV6600 DVD player...

But its good to know that the downconversion is working as it should so that i do not have to try another 1000 ways of downconverting it as it wont be any diffrent.

If i had autofocus or not on the clip with William, i have to say that im not certain there, it was a testshot i did this summer, and i cant remember. But its good to know what settings you have been using, I will try that the next racerecording and see if I can get a better depth of field, although that will not bu intil next summer... But i will remember this!

Thank you for all your help with everything! I am very grateful!!!

And thanks to all of you for helping out!

Regards
Perra

[Bluetongue]

Pera
Got them OK
Perhaps just a slight amount of movement (shimmering) on the second clip (highchair) in the grass in the background but it is only visible if I really look and put it up on the screen through the projector. Image is nearly two and a half meters across.
As to degradation on down sizing to SD 720x576 all videos appear good to me.
They are not going to be the same as the HDV footage.
Are you using the HV20 in Auto, Instant Auto focus or manual as in the video of William I detected it was focussed on the background not the subject.
That is as good as it gets on SD DVD, as good as any commercial DVD, for all my HDV footage I use a DVICO TViX 5000 HD Player until Blueray becomes a proposition, if ever.
I use my HV20 in Prog AE with the apature set to between F4 - F6.8 and F8 if really necessary and use iAF a lot as the manual focus is rather difficult, plus I leave the "Peaking" on all the time, takes a little getting used to but quickly identifies what is in focus.
The only problem you now have is to try the video on another monitor to see if the "shimmering" is there as I can detect none. Both my monitor and Projector are LCD perhaps this masks it, I must try on a friends plasma and CRT to see if it occurs, so far no one has complained of this problem on my DVD's
Regards Barry

Barry,
Sorry, the last file must have corrupted itself when uploading it. a new file is in place now along with the original m2t file...

"who is correct" Im not sure i understand what you mean there...?

And im sorry, the horse racing videos, i wanted to know if that is what i would expect on an SD disc, and that you have verified so i guess its what i can get out of it. thank you for checking that out! The William movie is the one i have problems with the shimmering, but as you describe the problem, I guess I just cant downconvert that file without the shimmering problem as its just not technically possible?!

And aboout the shallow depth in the horse racing, i dont think its possible with the HV20 camera to get that to have a better depth when it comes to the focus...

And thank you very very much again!

//Perra

[Bluetongue]

Pera
I have downloaded the files and I cannot fault them, it would seem to be the monitor you are playing them back on which is a worry. Who is correct?
The last file of "William" is corrupt so I cannot comment.
So far as sharpness on the others, it is what I would expect from SD DVD.
The other point is that on the video of the Horses there is nothing in the video that I would have expected to cause "Shimmering" if that is what it is.
It usually caused by an extremely sharp picture with grass / leaves etc,high contrast close together and when the encoder brings the 4 pixels from HD to SD it cannot decide whether the light or dark should be shown to seems to take a bet each way and display white then black and so appears to shimmer.
With the shallow depth of field and the foreground and background being out of focus I would not expect any shimmering to occur
Barry

Barry!
First of all may I congratulate you to have such great racingblood in your family! :)
Secondly i thank you for helping me out this much! I really appreciate it! I havent done mulitcam edit either, well i did it ONCE some years ago, and it is was really fun I have to say, cutting from diffrent sources does give the edit another dimension... well its more fun at least. :)

I have tried to change the extention of the files and also removed them, but it seems to be really wierd as when i right click on the link for download, and select "save target as" it will download the file as an .mpeg, regardless of the files original extension... So i dont know if its possible for you to do it that way or not, right clicking i mean and save as? i will try some more tom and se if i can get this right...

And I also have put a finished file that has given me some shimmering there, a shorter one, although its not the original m2t file, it will get there soon to, if you have the possibility to look at it...

If its still not possible for you to download the files i will dig deeper and see what is wrong...

Jerry, okay thanks, i will do that for compability then! Good to know!

Thanks
Perra

[Jerry]

I would keep your bit rate in the 8000 range as opposed to your 9100 range.
This is mostly for compatibility of playback across a large field of players.
The highest I go is 8,000 on SD and 35,000 on Bluray and HDDVD.

[Bluetongue]

Pera
Sorry for the delay I have been videoing my two youngest grandsons 8 and 10 at the South Australian Go Cart championships this weekend, the eldest came fourth in the finals, really good, one proud grand dad! I am now in the process of doing a multi cam edit for the first time and I can't believe how easy it has been, I gave my other two cameras to my son in law and daughter with the command to just keep the camera going even if you fall over. They have never used a video camera and I am hanging my head in shame as there is little of my video mostly theres I guess being younger their reaction time is better, perhaps the fast movement requires hand held camera as they and your video used instead of the encumbrance of the tripod, I am going to try that next time.
I down loaded the m2t HDV file but could not get the VOB or m2p files.
Quicktime kept grabbing them regardless of what I did and then refused to play them, but that was not what I wanted to do.
If you rename the VOB and m2p files by removing the dot before the extension this may help.
I used the m2t to make a DVD which I placed on the DVICO TViX player in SD DVD Format (Translated through PC Express and then authored by DVD Lab and I could not find and shimmering at all, the sharpness was as good as what I would expect from the original that has a very small depth of field, the horses are about all that is in focus.
the m2p file will probably be the one that tells it all so if you can rename it I will have a look, other than that the difference is probably the TV or monitor
I use a Sony Bravia flat screen TV 1920x1080 pixels and a Sony HS 60 HD projector and neither showed any shimmering on the SD DVD files I made.
Regards Barry

Okay i will continue shooting in HDV. So its better to shoot DV in dark scenes then... thats another topic i guess...
No i cant get the HD quality, but i guess i dont really know what to expect from what i have to work with here...

I have began doing some conversion testing and i have put the beginning of the tests on a homepage for downloading. So if you feel you have the time and feel like it, you could download a sample footage and the finished conversion. And maybe you could just tell me if that is what i can expect in "SD quality" from the source material i have... Or if you think that there is still some work to be done in the HDV to SD DVD path...

I have tried to capture some footage in GV HQ booth fine and normal, but as previously said in this thread, its really hard to see any diffrence there. I have tried converting from both .m2t files and the GV HQ files, but i honestly have a hard time to see any diffrence in the end... its is some more info on the page i have the files on...

http://www.jeanetteolsson.se/HDV/index.html

The files are rather big, so i understand if you dont have to time or so to look at them, but if you do and give some comment on the conversion i would be grateful.
(yes i know, I REALLY need a proper tripod for shooting the races, but take this as a sample shooting... If anyone knows of a good stable but not stupidly expensive tripod, that would be good for shooting races like in the sample i have uploaded, i would be very grateful for suggestions)

I am going to try more of the suggestions, programs etc, that you all have told about here, but this is a start at least, and the most easy place to start...

Its all done with Edius version 4.52.

(The files will be finished uploading to the above page in about 10 minutes from this posts creation....)

Thank you
Perra

[Jerry]

So that makes me wonder, IF im just going to output the movies to SD DVD, will it always be a better result shooting in 720x576i directly, so i dont have to deal with the downconversion....? When we bought the HDV camera, i thought that shoot in the best possible(what was affordable) and it would give me a DVD that was really good... but maybe i should start filming in 576i instead?!

I saw someone (maybe you) that said something about haveing problems with Encore as authering program, maybe that makes some of theese probs as well...

Thanks again!
Perra

1. NO, NO, NO.....Shoot in HDV and get all that you can get information wise.
You are just going to have to figure out what method and programs will give YOU the best quality. Keep in mind, you are not going to get an HD quality image out of an SD quality disc. It will still be better shot in HDV as opposed to DV for resolution purposes. There are exceptions, low light shooting.

2. I have been using Encore CS3 and DVDITPROHD and Encore is the more stable of the 2 programs. The only issue that I have is with the Encore encoder not translating the Procoder 3 encode files correctly on preview. This is not passed along to the final product. No crashes or bad authors from the program on 2 of my machines. It does, dvd, Bluray, and flash quite well.
I still use multiple programs to complete a project:
I edit with whatever I need to, I encode with PC3 or Squeeze 4.5, I author with Encore CS3 creating a disc image, and burn with NERO 8. There is no one program that can do everything I want the final product to have or do.

3. You mentioned earlier about field settings. If you use an upper field output then you need to stick with that setting all the way. What ever setting you use, lower, frame, or upper you need to stay in that mode through authoring.

4. I don't know if there is a difference in the final product produced from NTSC as opposed to PAL.

Ok, thanks that DOES sound good! No risk of reencoding without my knowledge!
I will do a bunch of tests and post them here, it will be a comparison from capturing m2t files via HDVSPLIT as I have been doing, converting via PE directly to VOBs as well as to mpeg files for authoring, using GV HQ files, well I will try a some combinations and try to give you all the results for anyone interested, just to compare it all. And I will put some sample files of the original an results for download, then you can maybe see if I have succeeded with my task of the downconvertion path or not! :)

Thank for all u'r input, all of you so far!
I'll be back!

//Perra