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Strange Quicktime Prores anomaly at 23.98 with certain files

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  • Strange Quicktime Prores anomaly at 23.98 with certain files

    I am seeing a strange Quicktime anomaly with certain types of Prores files in Edius.

    It’s only a problem with 23.98 content. See attached screenshot. Edius sees the file as 23.98 but as a “different” kind of 23.98.
    If I leave the file at its “native” 23.98 (with star) I get frame blending in a regular 23.98 timeline.
    I have to manually set it to the “alternate” 23.98 to get a clean image but then audio seems off by around 3 frames.
    This isn't new to Edius 7.4; had it happen before.

    I don’t know how these files were generated and can’t ask but we have been getting them from various post houses and I have seen it more often in recent months so it must be a reasonably widespread application which created them; this is all feature film content. Other 23.98 Prores QT loads fine so it must be specific to an encoder or NLE.
    The files play fine in Premiere, Avid, Vegas and Final Cut, no frame blending at all.
    Only Edius has this problem. Would be nice of someone could look into this since Prores is so widespread these days.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by mediawars; 11-10-2014, 11:06 PM.
    Test Systems:
    Supermicro 2x2.8Ghz Xeon E5-2680v2, Nvidia Titan, Tesla K20c, 64Gb Ram, Win7 64bit, Raid and San Storage.
    HP z800, 2x2.56Ghz Xeon Westmare CPU, Quadro 4000, 48Gb Ram, Win7 64bit, Areca 8040 SAS Raid.

  • #2
    inspect the file with mediainfo (free) and see if it is a variable frame rate file
    Anton Strauss
    Antons Video Productions - Sydney

    EDIUS X WG with BM Mini Monitor 4k and BM Mini Recorder, Gigabyte X299 UD4 Pro, Intel Core i9 9960X 16 Core, 32 Threads @ 4.3Ghz, Corsair Water Cooling, Gigabyte RTX-2070 Super 3X 8GB Video Card, Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD for System, 8TB Samsung Raid0 SSD for Video, 2 Pioneer BDR-209 Blu-ray/DVD burners, Hotswap Bay for 3.5" Sata and 2.5" SSD, Phanteks Enthoo Pro XL Tower, Corsair 32GB DDR4 Ram, Win10 Pro 21H2

    Comment


    • #3
      I have, it's not. See Mediainfo screenshot.
      Attached Files
      Test Systems:
      Supermicro 2x2.8Ghz Xeon E5-2680v2, Nvidia Titan, Tesla K20c, 64Gb Ram, Win7 64bit, Raid and San Storage.
      HP z800, 2x2.56Ghz Xeon Westmare CPU, Quadro 4000, 48Gb Ram, Win7 64bit, Areca 8040 SAS Raid.

      Comment


      • #4
        what is your QT player version? 7.7.6 is the current one http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/
        Anton Strauss
        Antons Video Productions - Sydney

        EDIUS X WG with BM Mini Monitor 4k and BM Mini Recorder, Gigabyte X299 UD4 Pro, Intel Core i9 9960X 16 Core, 32 Threads @ 4.3Ghz, Corsair Water Cooling, Gigabyte RTX-2070 Super 3X 8GB Video Card, Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD for System, 8TB Samsung Raid0 SSD for Video, 2 Pioneer BDR-209 Blu-ray/DVD burners, Hotswap Bay for 3.5" Sata and 2.5" SSD, Phanteks Enthoo Pro XL Tower, Corsair 32GB DDR4 Ram, Win10 Pro 21H2

        Comment


        • #5
          Latest version. Again, this only happens with certain 23.98 Prores files.
          Test Systems:
          Supermicro 2x2.8Ghz Xeon E5-2680v2, Nvidia Titan, Tesla K20c, 64Gb Ram, Win7 64bit, Raid and San Storage.
          HP z800, 2x2.56Ghz Xeon Westmare CPU, Quadro 4000, 48Gb Ram, Win7 64bit, Areca 8040 SAS Raid.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mediawars View Post
            I am seeing a strange Quicktime anomaly with certain types of Prores files in Edius.

            It’s only a problem with 23.98 content. See attached screenshot. Edius sees the file as 23.98 but as a “different”
            kind of 23.98. If I leave the file at its “native” 23.98 (with star) I get frame blending in a regular 23.98 timeline.
            I have to manually set it to the “alternate” 23.98 to get a clean image but then audio seems off by around 3
            frames. This isn't new to Edius 7.4; had it happen before.

            I don’t know how these files were generated and can’t ask but we have been getting them from various post houses
            and I have seen it more often in recent months so it must be a reasonably widespread application which created them;
            this is all feature film content. Other 23.98 Prores QT loads fine so it must be specific to an encoder or NLE.
            The files play fine in Premiere, Avid, Vegas and Final Cut, no frame blending at all.
            Only Edius has this problem. Would be nice of someone could look into this since Prores is so widespread these days.
            This is sadly one of the oddest, oldest & one of the most malicious issues in Edius, known & reported to tech support by me
            since version 5.5! Nothing has changed! Edius sadly can not deal with "variable" or "adaptive" frame rate which can happen
            on some codecs in QT container, even MP4 flavours.

            Your source files are not away from spec, it is just a misinterpretation by Edius / QT for Windows API. In your situation
            the number of frames in your clips are differing by just a small number over the whole running time compared to the number
            of frames in what we call "constant frame rate". Edius seems to calculate the frame rate by a simple math -> the running
            time will be devided by the number of frames! This would give correct results if we would have other frame rate based
            container formats. But the method is wrong to the concept of what the QT container is designed for (MP4 is very similar).
            In QuickTime is no such thing like fps! QT always holds timed events. Every single frame in QT is a timed single event.

            Edius is forced to round fps to the second decimal place. That's why you see the entry twice in your list!
            I never understood for what reason that is? As you know, the SMPTE standard specifies 23.976 fps not 23.98 fps!

            I still hope that these issues will be fixed one time.
            Based on that issue I had some hard days & a lot of trouble on some projects & with some clients in the past.
            For those who are using QT on a daily base this issue could end in a major business impact!

            Last week I had a similar situation. A clip at 12.98 fps got strange playback in Edius timeline.
            I converted the clip by FFMPEG (which is able to read the cip at the nominal frame rate).
            Adobe Premiere & After Effects can also deal with it. Edius can't!
            A real show stopper for QT workflows!

            Andreas
            Last edited by Andreas_Gumm; 11-10-2014, 11:52 PM.
            Andreas Gumm
            post production / authoring
            PC 1Intel Core i7-970 (6 x 3.20 GHz),
            ASUS P6T Deluxe V2, 12 GB RAM, Geforce 9800GT
            Windows 7 Ultimate,
            GV software: EDIUS 7.42, VisTitle v2.5,
            GV hardware: 3G Storm
            software SONY DoStudio Indie + EX 4.0.11
            PC 2
            Intel Core i7-3770, GIGABYTE Z77X-UD5H F14, 16GB RAM,
            Geforce 650 GTX, 5x HDD, Windows 7,
            GV software: EDIUS 7.42, ProCoder 3.0
            GV hardware: HD SPARK
            software: Telestream Switch, DTS-HD MAS, Dolby Media Meter

            Comment


            • #7
              Andreas, thanks for the valuable insight. I wish GV would sort this problem.
              It's a big issue as one has to really double check the frame rate and behaviour of QT files. I usually take these odd 23.98 QT filest and do a re-encode elsewhere before I load them into Edius, just to be on the safe side. I have only seen this with Prores, not DnxHD or other codecs in mov wrapper.
              I am just curious which app is generating these files. It's not a capture card as Blackmagic and AJA creates clean Prores. It's also not Final Cut, Premiere or Avid nor is it FFMPEG given the writing library information in Mediainfo.
              Test Systems:
              Supermicro 2x2.8Ghz Xeon E5-2680v2, Nvidia Titan, Tesla K20c, 64Gb Ram, Win7 64bit, Raid and San Storage.
              HP z800, 2x2.56Ghz Xeon Westmare CPU, Quadro 4000, 48Gb Ram, Win7 64bit, Areca 8040 SAS Raid.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm not much familar with Mac software.
                AFAIK compressor provides an option to tick "variable frame rate" on!
                I also got "Animation" encoded files with the same issue.

                You are right, DNxHD follows the concept of consistent frame rate.

                Andreas
                Andreas Gumm
                post production / authoring
                PC 1Intel Core i7-970 (6 x 3.20 GHz),
                ASUS P6T Deluxe V2, 12 GB RAM, Geforce 9800GT
                Windows 7 Ultimate,
                GV software: EDIUS 7.42, VisTitle v2.5,
                GV hardware: 3G Storm
                software SONY DoStudio Indie + EX 4.0.11
                PC 2
                Intel Core i7-3770, GIGABYTE Z77X-UD5H F14, 16GB RAM,
                Geforce 650 GTX, 5x HDD, Windows 7,
                GV software: EDIUS 7.42, ProCoder 3.0
                GV hardware: HD SPARK
                software: Telestream Switch, DTS-HD MAS, Dolby Media Meter

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by More4K View Post
                  It has nothing to do with codec directly. It's due to the fact that QT can hold audio outside video data and many exports from FCP exibit it due to fact that people don't use IN/OUT markers.
                  In that case, you have described, you are totally right.
                  QT can hold media assets of different length at different start points in one single file.
                  That is what I meant with "event based". Some guys are talking about "authoring" in QuickTime. ;)
                  Originally posted by More4K View Post
                  QT does not really have header which directly describes fps.
                  Yep!
                  I do know from developers that they do a look-up for the shortest distance of "frames" in a Quicktime file to calculate the frame rate this way.

                  It's good at all to have a report of other users.
                  I felt alone in this matter! ;)

                  Andreas
                  Andreas Gumm
                  post production / authoring
                  PC 1Intel Core i7-970 (6 x 3.20 GHz),
                  ASUS P6T Deluxe V2, 12 GB RAM, Geforce 9800GT
                  Windows 7 Ultimate,
                  GV software: EDIUS 7.42, VisTitle v2.5,
                  GV hardware: 3G Storm
                  software SONY DoStudio Indie + EX 4.0.11
                  PC 2
                  Intel Core i7-3770, GIGABYTE Z77X-UD5H F14, 16GB RAM,
                  Geforce 650 GTX, 5x HDD, Windows 7,
                  GV software: EDIUS 7.42, ProCoder 3.0
                  GV hardware: HD SPARK
                  software: Telestream Switch, DTS-HD MAS, Dolby Media Meter

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just to keep that issue in focus, ;)
                    It's still present.

                    Andreas
                    Attached Files
                    Andreas Gumm
                    post production / authoring
                    PC 1Intel Core i7-970 (6 x 3.20 GHz),
                    ASUS P6T Deluxe V2, 12 GB RAM, Geforce 9800GT
                    Windows 7 Ultimate,
                    GV software: EDIUS 7.42, VisTitle v2.5,
                    GV hardware: 3G Storm
                    software SONY DoStudio Indie + EX 4.0.11
                    PC 2
                    Intel Core i7-3770, GIGABYTE Z77X-UD5H F14, 16GB RAM,
                    Geforce 650 GTX, 5x HDD, Windows 7,
                    GV software: EDIUS 7.42, ProCoder 3.0
                    GV hardware: HD SPARK
                    software: Telestream Switch, DTS-HD MAS, Dolby Media Meter

                    Comment

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