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An old myth...need clarity

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  • An old myth...need clarity

    So you've all heard of camera's that can shoot "true" 16:9 dv footage.

    So tell me this, If I shoot someting on a Sony PD170, in "wide mode" (typically this camera does not shoot TRUE 16:9) then what is the difference between that and shooting 16:9 on my Sony FX1???

    When I capture both to my hard drive, they both have the same pixel count, and frame size.

    I know that one camera has a 16x9 "chip" or "sensor" and the other one uses anmorphic lense to fake 16x9. But really, at the end of the day, how much sharper is the finished DVD going to be using footage shot on a "true" 16x9 camera?

    Very little, if none, if you ask me.

    I ask this because I know a few guys who have been doing weddings for many years, and they refuse to use the "wide" mode on their older camera's. WHY??? Because its not "true" wide screen. Sure 4:3 will be sharper, but the resulting DVD with a little adjusting (sharpening), will be much better in wide screen....IMHO.

    Anyone???

    ohhh....and just to ad quickly, remember Premiere 6.5's wide screen settings where 1024x576 (sqaur pixel 16:9)????? Is that incorrect? What dv camera can shoot 1024x576 square???
    When I go out, I wear my EDIUS T-Shirt.

  • #2
    the 170 does not letterbox on the CCD and captures true 16:9
    http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...s/v-2194-a.pdf
    Anton Strauss
    Antons Video Productions - Sydney

    EDIUS X WG with BM Mini Monitor 4k and BM Mini Recorder, Gigabyte X299 UD4 Pro, Intel Core i9 9960X 16 Core, 32 Threads @ 4.3Ghz, Corsair Water Cooling, Gigabyte RTX-2070 Super 3X 8GB Video Card, Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD for System, 8TB Samsung Raid0 SSD for Video, 2 Pioneer BDR-209 Blu-ray/DVD burners, Hotswap Bay for 3.5" Sata and 2.5" SSD, Phanteks Enthoo Pro XL Tower, Corsair 32GB DDR4 Ram, Win10 Pro

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    • #3
      Okay then. Thats that sorted, thanks Anton :) But, what if id didn't......shoot "true 16:9". For example, I hired a Sony PDX10 once, and the guy said "its not true 16:9 though" but to me, I couldn't tell the difference. Was he just sharing his lack of knowledge about the camera?

      I'm still curious to know the difference - is it simply, a camera thats shoots 16:9 that isn't true, is really shooting 4:3 letterbox???
      When I go out, I wear my EDIUS T-Shirt.

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      • #4
        a camera that is not designed for true 16:9 uses a 4:3 CCD, then when you switch to 16:9, only a letterbox section of the CCD is used, causing lower resolution output from the camera head to the recording device

        a typical SD 16:9 CCD has 1024x576 pixel, then when switching such a camera to shoot in 4:3, only the middle 720x576 pixels of the 1024x576 CCD are used

        the above relates to PAL
        Anton Strauss
        Antons Video Productions - Sydney

        EDIUS X WG with BM Mini Monitor 4k and BM Mini Recorder, Gigabyte X299 UD4 Pro, Intel Core i9 9960X 16 Core, 32 Threads @ 4.3Ghz, Corsair Water Cooling, Gigabyte RTX-2070 Super 3X 8GB Video Card, Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD for System, 8TB Samsung Raid0 SSD for Video, 2 Pioneer BDR-209 Blu-ray/DVD burners, Hotswap Bay for 3.5" Sata and 2.5" SSD, Phanteks Enthoo Pro XL Tower, Corsair 32GB DDR4 Ram, Win10 Pro

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        • #5
          The big number is for square pixel count, but since video is not square pixel, your video is 720x576, but in pixel space this would be 1024x576. This is for pal. NTSC is 852x480 or something.

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          • #6
            Yes, I totally understand pixel aspect ratios - What I really wanted to clarify is, if a camera claims it is able to shoot 16:9, but not TRUE 16:9, it is really only able to shoot 4:3 letterbox???

            ohhhhhggggrrhhhhh..........

            I just imported some captured footage into Procoder and it say s 1024x576! If it captures sqaure, whay can't I edit square?? What confuses me is edius's project settings. Why can't you edit 16:9 footage that is still in square pixels? Wouldn't it be sharper? (it is in after effects)

            I understand that a wide screen mpeg2 has to 720x576 (1.422).

            In edius, a 16:9 and 4:3 project both use 720x576, just different shaped pixels. I allways new that, but I never new the camera actually captured 1024x576 square pixels when shooting in wide screen mode.

            So......was Premiere 6.5 right having the option to create a 16:9 project with square pixels?
            When I go out, I wear my EDIUS T-Shirt.

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            • #7
              When I go out, I wear my EDIUS T-Shirt.

              Comment


              • #8
                there is no such thing in the world as 1024x576 video, what you see in ProCoder is nothing but and indication (a flag) to Procoder to treat the footage as widescreen

                the Pal SD standard is and will always be 720x576 regardless of 16:9 or 4:3
                Anton Strauss
                Antons Video Productions - Sydney

                EDIUS X WG with BM Mini Monitor 4k and BM Mini Recorder, Gigabyte X299 UD4 Pro, Intel Core i9 9960X 16 Core, 32 Threads @ 4.3Ghz, Corsair Water Cooling, Gigabyte RTX-2070 Super 3X 8GB Video Card, Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD for System, 8TB Samsung Raid0 SSD for Video, 2 Pioneer BDR-209 Blu-ray/DVD burners, Hotswap Bay for 3.5" Sata and 2.5" SSD, Phanteks Enthoo Pro XL Tower, Corsair 32GB DDR4 Ram, Win10 Pro

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                • #9
                  Matt don't worry about the size it's reporting, as long as it looks ok, you're good to go. As someone mentioned your PD170 does native 16:9.

                  There are some cameras that fake 16:9 by zooming in the video and chopping the top and bottom while changing the flag on the recorded DV tape to 16:9 so your NLE can recognize it correctly.

                  HDV camcorders are native 16:9. Even if you shoot in DV mode, your resulting footage will be 100% 16:9.

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                  • #10
                    Hi,

                    We have 2 Sony PD150 Pal and 1 PD170 Pal and you need a 16X9 converter to get a good picture.
                    Only the PDX10 has a native 16X9 CCD.
                    Check the Sony Biz FAQ on the 150/170.
                    Rob

                    www.volkenkunde.nl

                    Edius Broadcast 4.54| 3X SP hardware 1 NX | Dual Xeon 3.2 Supermicro | Carbon coder

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by antonsvideo View Post
                      the 170 does not letterbox on the CCD and captures true 16:9
                      http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...s/v-2194-a.pdf
                      Sony's true 16:9 they quote in that brochure is a bunch of donkey dust, the camera they are dissing is the dvx100, the dvx100a does the same thing as the PDs and VXs, panasonic calls it the squeeze mode, Sony's stretchs the truth and says its producing a true image, what they don't tell you is that the true anamorphic 720x480 is DSPed from a 720x360 cropped image, the 720x360(.9) cropped is overlayed electronically on a 862x480(sq) matrix, then further DSPed to produce full anamorphic(true) image, what they don't tell you is you loose approx 25% vert res in the process.
                      You have to remmember these are the people who have been touting that their DV tape produces much better images with truer more vibrant colours than their competitors.
                      In ref to the PDX10/trv950 they are true 16:9 Cams
                      GA-EP45C-DSR3,Core2Q3ghz,8gig1066,260GTX,2x 20"AOC,22"Vizio1080pTV, Edius5/HDspark,PC3,Imaginate, CS5ProdStudio/IntensityPro,Win7_64
                      HPdv7t 17"notebook,8gig,2 IntHD,9600GT512M,17"extmon, Edius4.61,CS4Prodstudio.Win7_64,MX02Mini
                      DAW,HPdv9000,x2Turion,4Gig,2IntHD,Audition3,Cubase 4,XPpro,Alessis F/Wmixer,M-Audio F/Wmixer,BCF2000, BehringerMixers, Fender sound sys
                      Numerous Ext eSATA drives & Raids shared between systems

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Blast1 View Post
                        Sony's true 16:9 they quote in that brochure is a bunch of donkey dust, the camera they are dissing is the dvx100, the dvx100a does the same thing as the PDs and VXs, panasonic calls it the squeeze mode, Sony's stretchs the truth and says its producing a true image, what they don't tell you is that the true anamorphic 720x480 is DSPed from a 720x360 cropped image, the 720x360(.9) cropped is overlayed electronically on a 862x480(sq) matrix, then further DSPed to produce full anamorphic(true) image, what they don't tell you is you loose approx 25% vert res in the process.
                        You have to remmember these are the people who have been touting that their DV tape produces much better images with truer more vibrant colours than their competitors.
                        In ref to the PDX10/trv950 they are true 16:9 Cams
                        Blast1 is right, Sony is full of bs on this one.
                        I7-6900K, X99 Taichi, Geforce GTX 1070, Corsair RM850X, Corsair H100 IV2, Windows 10, Edius WG 9.30

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