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  • Audio Question

    A question to those making on-air content (mainly TV commercials).

    In Australia the “FACTS OPERATIONAL PRACTICE OP-29” states that the audio reference level should be -20db (Tone) and peaks should not exceed -12db (allowing 8db headroom).

    If -20db (or any other level) is set as the reference level in Edius does this effect the frequency response ie limiting and bit compression ?

    I have found that since I’ve been using Edius for my on-air content and despite what reference audio level I set, my audio on-air seems low compared with other content either side. (ie other TV commercials etc.) It seems that the audio has lost much of its frequency response. This is also independent of the original audio source ie jingles/voice mix, vox, and full external mixes.

    I have tried supplying the TV stations with much higher levels thinking that they might not be working to OP-29 but I have found that it makes no difference. I have also tried applying heavy multi-band compression using VST plug-ins… same result.

    It’s strange that audio exported from our old Premier box appears (sounds) great on-air.

    Any ideas or comments would be greatly appreciated.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Qframe View Post
    A question to those making on-air content (mainly TV commercials).

    In Australia the “FACTS OPERATIONAL PRACTICE OP-29” states that the audio reference level should be -20db (Tone) and peaks should not exceed -12db (allowing 8db headroom).

    If -20db (or any other level) is set as the reference level in Edius does this effect the frequency response ie limiting and bit compression ?

    I have found that since I’ve been using Edius for my on-air content and despite what reference audio level I set, my audio on-air seems low compared with other content either side. (ie other TV commercials etc.) It seems that the audio has lost much of its frequency response. This is also independent of the original audio source ie jingles/voice mix, vox, and full external mixes.

    I have tried supplying the TV stations with much higher levels thinking that they might not be working to OP-29 but I have found that it makes no difference. I have also tried applying heavy multi-band compression using VST plug-ins… same result.

    It’s strange that audio exported from our old Premier box appears (sounds) great on-air.

    Any ideas or comments would be greatly appreciated.
    The UK/BBC standard is much the same, except we use -18dB as reference. I think the problem you are encountering here lies outside of Edius. The fact that you are talking about commercials is highly significant. It is common practice to make commercials as loud as legally possible in order to GET THE MESSAGE ACROSS. So all sorts of sophisticated processors are used to increase the loudness without exceeding the allowed peaks. There is quite an art to doing this. In your case, you may not have achieved maximum loudness but you may have exceeded the maximum allowed peak, in which case a limiter will probably kick in before transmission and simply pull everything down (and may well degrade the perceived quality in doing so). Personally I have never had any cause to doubt that the audio quality from Edius is not what is should be under all circumstances.

    Of course the key question is have you done an A/B comparison with the audio off-tape and off-air?

    Afterthought - another possibility is that somehow your audio contains sub- or super-sonic interference that you cannot hear, but will nevertheless kick off the limiter on transmission.
    Andrew Pinder
    www.chpv.co.uk
    Edius 9 with Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4k; Windows 10 (64 bit Pro); Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro; i9-9900K CPU; 32GB RAM;
    Asus GTX1060 graphics; RME Fireface800 audio; SATA RAID

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    • #3
      Most mainstream music production uses similar techniques - combination of compressor and limiter to reduce the peaks followed by normalization.

      Imagine a tube... You can make the tube more full with smooth balls than with spiked balls, because the spikes reduce the "fill" in the tube. Okay, that wasn't the greatest analogy, but I'm a bit tired.

      Comment


      • #4
        All great info.
        I want to add something. Audio for a commercial is tweaked in a sound app most of the time. You actually seldom hear the raw audio from the editor.
        It is all done in an audio app to make it legally as loud and "sweet" as can be.


        Steve
        Steve
        EDIUS Trainer, Grass Cutter Gold
        A proud EDIUS EDITOR
        For more information on the Grass Cutter program please visit: http://www.grass-cutters.net

        Comment


        • #5
          yes, and Soundfore9 is a great tool, especially the wave hammer, also, SF has the VU meter that I wish in Edius
          http://www.videoproductions.com.au/edius45/SF9.gif
          Anton Strauss
          Antons Video Productions - Sydney

          EDIUS X WG with BM Mini Monitor 4k and BM Mini Recorder, Gigabyte X299 UD4 Pro, Intel Core i9 9960X 16 Core, 32 Threads @ 4.3Ghz, Corsair Water Cooling, Gigabyte RTX-2070 Super 3X 8GB Video Card, Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD for System, 8TB Samsung Raid0 SSD for Video, 2 Pioneer BDR-209 Blu-ray/DVD burners, Hotswap Bay for 3.5" Sata and 2.5" SSD, Phanteks Enthoo Pro XL Tower, Corsair 32GB DDR4 Ram, Win10 Pro

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          • #6
            Most audio in the pro arenas are done in ProTools by professional sound engineers.

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            • #7
              Protools and Nuendo.
              Last edited by johannesj; 09-21-2007, 12:52 PM.
              JoiCam´s
              Edit station1: i7 6700K 4 ghz, 32gb ram, Edius 9 Workgroup, Davinci Resolve studio 16, 8GB GPU & Intensity Pro 4K
              2: 17" Laptop i7 w: Edius 9 Workgroup
              3: HPxw8600 dual 3ghz Xeon, STORM 3G, , Edius 7, 32 GB ram.
              4: Edius 7, Supermicro x7da8 dual 3ghz Xeon.
              Audio: Protools & Nuendo, M-Audio and Presonus interfaces, control surfaces and preamps, dual 3ghz Xeon. 16gb Ram.
              Studio monitoring: Mackie 1402-VLZ Pro mixer and Mackie HR824 Spk. Panasonic surround system.
              And more

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              • #8
                For audio pre-processing I use an amazing standalone freeware broadcast software called MBL4 version 4.0.6.

                http://www.burnill.co.uk/mbl4_broadcast406.exe

                Essentially, it's a 4-band Broadcast processor; similar to what FM/AM stations use prior to the transmitter input. (Clipper/Gated AGC/Compander/Multi-band limiter/Automatic Gain Riding)

                What I do is that I edit in the NLE using good audio levels as much as I can. When I'm done with video editing, I then export the rendered final mix to a .wav file and I import it to this MBL4 software. I set the output peak to -12 dBfs. I then import this newly processed audio file to the NLE audio track and I'm ready to export to tape/DVD. I agree that the Graphic User Interface is not the best I've seen, but it gets the job done.

                I tried the Wave Hammer option in Sound Forge, as well as other directX plug-in processors such as "Waves" for Adobe Audition. They are all too "harsh" since they are "broadband" compressors/brickwall limiters.

                Although I didn't tried it with Edius, taking advantage of its real-time capabilities, you can interface MBL4 with an NLE and do real-time processed voice-overs.
                Last edited by GreekTV; 04-10-2008, 09:55 PM.
                Dimitri Papadopoulos


                Edius 6.01. My system: Windows 7 SP1 Ultimate 64-bit, Dell Precision WorkStation T3500, Intel Dual-Core Xeon W3503 CPU @ 2.4 GHz, 8 GB 1.3GHz DDR3 ECC DIMMs, Seagate 2TB 7200 rpm SATA HD, BFG nVidia GeForce GT 740 4GB CUDA GPU, DirectX 11, QuickTime 7.7.9 Pro, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 audio card, Orange Micro SCI FireWave 51005-7000 rev 1.3 IEEE1394a 3-port card (Texas Instruments chipset), Canon GL2 Camera and SONY DSR-25 DVCAM VTR.

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                • #9
                  From the horses mouth:



                  MBL4 was the first PC based processor.Development started in 2000 and the first release was in December 2001.
                  The code MBL4 uses is mainly 16bit. It usesthe the MMX instuction set of Intel & AMD CPUs.The 16bit code gave a poor dynamic range - it sounded hissy.

                  MBL4 is no longer being developed and is released as freeware.
                  Steve
                  EDIUS Trainer, Grass Cutter Gold
                  A proud EDIUS EDITOR
                  For more information on the Grass Cutter program please visit: http://www.grass-cutters.net

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SRsupport View Post
                    The 16bit code gave a poor dynamic range - it sounded hissy. MBL4 is no longer being developed and is released as freeware.
                    For ENG/EFP/Feature work I do, I never heard any anomalies with MBL4. The freeware is version 4.0.6 released in November 2006. Perhaps, the site refers to an early version being noisy.

                    It's true that MBL4 is discontinued, as it has been replaced with a newer 5-band processor called MBL5. Another equivalent product is called SoundSolution XAP. But I'm quite satisfied with MBL4.
                    Last edited by GreekTV; 04-10-2008, 09:59 PM.
                    Dimitri Papadopoulos


                    Edius 6.01. My system: Windows 7 SP1 Ultimate 64-bit, Dell Precision WorkStation T3500, Intel Dual-Core Xeon W3503 CPU @ 2.4 GHz, 8 GB 1.3GHz DDR3 ECC DIMMs, Seagate 2TB 7200 rpm SATA HD, BFG nVidia GeForce GT 740 4GB CUDA GPU, DirectX 11, QuickTime 7.7.9 Pro, M-Audio Audiophile 2496 audio card, Orange Micro SCI FireWave 51005-7000 rev 1.3 IEEE1394a 3-port card (Texas Instruments chipset), Canon GL2 Camera and SONY DSR-25 DVCAM VTR.

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