Quick lesson on uncompressed files with Edius?

[tarkken]

Hi.

I'm about to deliver a commercial for broadcast, cut with Edius 4.5.1. The cable company has a 'variety of Final Cut machines'. I'm looking to provide them a file with the best quality I can, so that they can load it up, and get it on the air.

I've heard that transcoding to quicktime can take a 'hit' or that there's a color bug with Edius/Canopus, etc. Perhaps I'm wrong(?).

It's a 30second spot with another minute for a title slate, bars, etc. I was hoping I could deliver one of the uncompressed files that are available in the file-export options, or find the best method to transcode to a compatible quicktime file for Final Cut.

Are there any advantages to using one over the other, and would you assume that they would load into a final cut machine without much problem (requiring any codecs (assuming not), etc)?

The options I found were:
Uncompressed RGB AVI
Uncompressed UYVY AVI
Uncompressed YUY2 AVI

I tried the UYVY & YUY2 - they look good played back in Edius. Was curious about RGB - is this a computer colorspace, or would/could/should you use it for broadcast?

I took them into ProCoder3 for a quick look at their description, and was puzzled by the aspect ratio - they show they are 720x480, but with a Video: 27:20, Pixel: 648: 720 aspect ratio. I exported from a SD 4x3 timeline.

I'd like to get some clarification on this, to make sure I'm delivering the best quality content that I can, and not run into any delays, incorrect pixel-aspect ratios, etc. I'd also like to see what other Quicktime transcoding options may be available, if I want to deliver something of longer-form (making uncompressed tougher or less realistic).

Thanks very much for your help.

[tarkken]

Would love any advice and clarification.

Tried a number of Canopus exports on a Final Cut machine - the only ones that would show video were the Uncompressed RGB & the DV stream. The uncompressed was skipping (hopefully because it was run from a USB drive and the data rate was too high) and the DV stream just kept beeping on the audio (plus that file looked like crap when played/auditioned in the Edius timeline). I've exported these to Quicktime files, and I'm going to see how they look as well.

I was also able to export it to P2 DVCPRO50 and read it - not sure how that's going to run, but it may be another option.

Perhaps Uncompressed RGB is the way to go(?).

Would love to get the background on everything and see what others are doing.

Thanks much.

[7hbg]

... I took them into ProCoder3 for a quick look at their description, and was puzzled by the aspect ratio - they show they are 720x480, but with a Video: 27:20, Pixel: 648: 720 aspect ratio. I exported from a SD 4x3 timeline. ...

Yes the aspect ratio is a bit confusing, but it is correct.
Here is how:
As you mentioned the original video is 720 by 480 at 4:3 aspect ratio. At that frame size and aspect ratio it means that it is a DV source at 0.9 video aspect ratio. So the actual ‘bitmap’ size is 648 by 480 pixels (not 648 by 720 as you reported in your post). If you now take 648 (width) and divide by 27 and then multiply it by 20 you then get 480 (height), so the reported ratio is correct. This is as close as you can get to true 4:3 aspect ratio with DV source. If your source file were D1 at 4:3 (720 by 486 @ 0.9) then ProCoder would report a true 4:3 aspect ratio.

720 * 0.9 = 648 (bitmap width)
648 / 4 = 162
162 * 3 = 486 (bitmap height)

So to simplify:
DV source 4:3 (720x480 @ 0.9) will report 27:20 aspect ratio.
D1 source 4:3 (720x486 @ 0.9) will report 4:3 aspect ratio (notice a difference of 6 line).

[STORMDAVE]

Use uncompressed rgb avi. The file will work fine under osx.

[Roy Colquitt]

Perhaps Uncompressed RGB is the way to go(?).

Would love to get the background on everything and see what others are doing.

Thanks much.

What is your source format?

If it's DV25, IMO, and if they'll take a DV25 (MSDV .avi or Apple DV .mov) file, either one of those will be fine.

I can't see what practical gain there could be from "bumping" a DV25 source to uncompressed. As a matter of fact, there would be some re-encoding saved by leaving it as DV25.

I think that what others are doing is probably going to vary too much from case to case to be helpful.

If your source isn't DV25. never mind (D'oh!).

[tarkken]

Update & questions

Got to play with a Final Cut machine running 5.1.4.

BTW, this commercial content is a mix of legacy DV & HDV footage. However, I've got the Panny 2000's (the full HD) cams - so I'll want to hone this workflow for future files, including downconverts and full HD.

So - Final Cut reads the Uncompressed RGB file from Edius - however, it looks like the setup is off - the blacks are stretched and hazy...

A P2 DVCPRO50 file looks good - blacks are good, etc. I may attempt to deliver it like that, or import it on another Final Cut machine and export to a QT DV50 or DV file, etc and deliver as QT's (those tests looked good so far).

A 'DV AVI' file exported from Edius doesn't play/show video in FC

A ProCoder 3 export to QT with Apple Animation codec plays, but the setup looks off where blacks are stretched/hazy (like above).

A ProCoder 3 to Apple DV codec QT imports with a FC warning about how the file is 'not optimized' for Final Cut (and re-capturing is recommended). However, on the Final Cut timeline, the file looks good... big question there.

It's looking like my P2 DVCPRO50 is the best choice right now, or at least a lifeline.

I'd like to know more about what's going on with the uncompressed files, etc.
It seems to me that I ran into similar black-level scenarios trying to turn a Canopus Lossless file into a flash vid - that the setup was black streched/hazy. Is there something I should know about uncompressed files and their black levels?

All observations are welcome - I don't think that pesky Final Cut is going away anytime soon...

[tarkken]

Update & questions

Got to play with a Final Cut machine running 5.1.4.

BTW, this commercial content is a mix of legacy DV & HDV footage. However, I've got the Panny 2000's (the full HD) cams - so I'll want to hone this workflow for future files, including downconverts and full HD.

So - Final Cut reads the Uncompressed RGB file from Edius - however, it looks like the setup is off - the blacks are stretched and hazy...

A P2 DVCPRO50 file looks good - blacks are good, etc. I may attempt to deliver it like that, or import it on another Final Cut machine and export to a QT DV50 or DV file, etc and deliver as QT's (those tests looked good so far).

A 'DV AVI' file exported from Edius doesn't play/show video in FC

A ProCoder 3 export to QT with Apple Animation codec plays, but the setup looks off where blacks are stretched/hazy (like above).

A ProCoder 3 to Apple DV codec QT imports with a FC warning about how the file is 'not optimized' for Final Cut (and re-capturing is recommended). However, on the Final Cut timeline, the file looks good... big question there.

It's looking like my P2 DVCPRO50 is the best choice right now, or at least a lifeline.

I'd like to know more about what's going on with the uncompressed files, etc.
It seems to me that I ran into similar black-level scenarios trying to turn a Canopus Lossless file into a flash vid - that the setup was black streched/hazy. Is there something I should know about uncompressed files and their black levels?

All observations are welcome - I don't think that pesky Final Cut is going away anytime soon...

[STORMDAVE]

Do you have After Effects by any chance? If not, download the demo.

Export a Canopus Lossless file out of Edius, then load that into After Effects, drop the file into the new comp icon, and render out a QuickTime file with the Animation Codec at 100% (Lossless) with 48Khz 16bit Stereo audio.

I skipped exporting out of Edius to a QT file because of the color/luminance shift that has been plaguing Edius forever now.

As far as black levels, here's the scenario for NTSC:

16-235 for R, G, and B channels. If black is at 0, you will not like the results on a properly calibrated NTSC monitor.

So keep in mind, black for NTSC is 16 and whites are 235.

Are the FCP preview monitors properly setup? What capture card are they using to output video? Decklink? Aja? Bluefish? They need to set the IRE levels correctly, their engineer should be able to do it. If you guys were previewing the file on a computer monitor, then don't worr about it, the image on your computer does not represent the final image.

[JPowell]

You might also check with the cable company and see how their engineering dept encodes for local commercial insertion. A LOT of them are using MPEG2 encoding for playback, and you can simply encode a high quality m2p using procoder, change the extension to mpg and upload it directly to their FTP.

If they have their workflow set up properly, then all they do is add a wrapper with the proper metadata to the file and it goes straight to air. this involves the least amount of human error, since you bypass their FCP machines (and the operators of said machines) and go straight to the format they are serving up to viewers.

This usually entails speaking with the head of engineering and perhaps someone in the IT department to set you up FTP access. Be patient, and you can probably get setup for a longterm workflow.

[mattmatt]

JPowell is right :) That's what we do. For SD tv, render out an Mpeg 2 Program Stream (stereo, not AC3, hence prgram stream) at say 9000kb/s.

Have you tried the "Application specific......Final Cut Pro" option in ProCoder? That sounds logical to me.

[STORMDAVE]

Have you tried the "Application specific......Final Cut Pro" option in ProCoder? That sounds logical to me.

Currently the QT exporters cause problems. I think it was the same through ProCoder2 as well.

[mattmatt]

Really? Thanks for that....I like the AFX idea too :)

[tarkken]

I tried importing a Canopus Lossless into After Effects CS3 (and AE 6.5) - it wouldn't load it.

I also tried loading a Canopus HQ file in both CS3 & AE 6.5 - it loads in CS3 - however, it shows up in the composition upsidedown and flipped. I flipped it back around and was careful to maintain the aspect - when I exported it to QT Animation, it looked soft and rastered when playing it back in Edius.

I thought others ran across this 'flipped/upsidedown' issue. Not sure what's going on there...

Also tried to import it in Vegas - no deal. Canopus is on it's own island in many ways with it's codecs/compatibilities it seems.

I think I've got a DV50 resolution for now using P2 DVCPRO 50 encoding - we'll see...

Nice idea with the Mpeg file as well - I'll talk to them about that.

[STORMDAVE]

Have you tried reinstalling Edius 4.51c? Just run the installer again and remove it, then restart, run it again and install, then restart.

These codecs show up for me in AE7.

[tarkken]

Update & questions

Got to play with a Final Cut machine running 5.1.4.

BTW, this commercial content is a mix of legacy DV & HDV footage. However, I've got the Panny 2000's (the full HD) cams - so I'll want to hone this workflow for future files, including downconverts and full HD.

So - Final Cut reads the Uncompressed RGB file from Edius - however, it looks like the setup is off - the blacks are stretched and hazy...

A P2 DVCPRO50 file looks good - blacks are good, etc. I may attempt to deliver it like that, or import it on another Final Cut machine and export to a QT DV50 or DV file, etc and deliver as QT's (those tests looked good so far).

A 'DV AVI' file exported from Edius doesn't play/show video in FC

A ProCoder 3 export to QT with Apple Animation codec plays, but the setup looks off where blacks are stretched/hazy (like above).

A ProCoder 3 to Apple DV codec QT imports with a FC warning about how the file is 'not optimized' for Final Cut (and re-capturing is recommended). However, on the Final Cut timeline, the file looks good... big question there.

It's looking like my P2 DVCPRO50 is the best choice right now, or at least a lifeline.

I'd like to know more about what's going on with the uncompressed files, etc.
It seems to me that I ran into similar black-level scenarios trying to turn a Canopus Lossless file into a flash vid - that the setup was black streched/hazy. Is there something I should know about uncompressed files and their black levels?

All observations are welcome - I don't think that pesky Final Cut is going away anytime soon...