A few things 10bit after playing with the trial

[NakedEye]

Just a couple of observations from using the trial version of Edius 6.5... I think this is shaping up nicely and is moving in the right direction with many of the new features... I am not a 3D guy so I will leave that for others to explore and comment on. I have however had a short play with some of the tools that we ourselves would find beneficial as would some of our clients and industry associates. It would be great if others could test with regards to what is listed below and post results here. Also it would also be great to get some feedback from GV as well.

So just to re-iterate... these findings may only be true for the trial version and are not expansive tests by any means... so if you have a full version please do your own tests and report back.

I have attached some screenshots as well.

Firstly when exporting with the new QuickTime HQX from a 10bit Edius 6.5 project I noticed that there are no 10bit options for the QuickTime HQX codec... as you can see in the screenshot it only allows millions of colours + (8 bit video with alpha) and not the expected trillions of colours needed for 10bit video.

The resulting video when taken back into Edius 6.5 does show as having a 10bit YUV depth at least according to Edius 6.5... not sure how this is working. I then opened the same QuickTime HQX file in After Effects CS4 which also interprets the footage as having a 10bit YUV depth... but when changing the AE projects bit depth to 16bit or even 32bit float the QuickTime HQX file turns black and all image data is not readable.

So I then exported the clip as a Canopus HQX avi directly from the Edius 6.5 10bit projects timeline and brought that into the AE project... this clip is also correctly iterpreted as having a 10bit YUV depth in AE (this is a good sign as in the past this info was not passed to 3rd party applications) and when switching project settings in AE to 16bit or 32bit float all the image data remains... so it would seem at least thus far our 10bit information is making it all the way into AE from Edius 6.5 which is a major plus for windows users of Edius 6.5 and third party applications such as AE.

But there does seem to be a problem when wanting to share stuff with Editors or post houses that are mac based when using the new QuickTime HQX codec at 10bit YUV at least thats what the trial indicates.

OK so we are halfway there... I have done my work in AE and I want to go back to Edius 6.5 with my finished clip. So what are the options in AE CS4 regarding the new HQX codec for rendering out a final clip to take back to Edius 6.5 and keep my 10bit information in tact.
Well it seems that rendering to HQX from AECS4 at least is limited to millions of colours + (8bit video + alpha).The QuickTime exporter in AE also shows the same settings as it does in Edius 6.5 so no trillions of colours available there either.

So again just to clarify I am only using the version 6.5 trial and these are just short workflow tests with what is available in the trial... having said that it would be nice if Grass valley could publish some workflow documents for intended 10bit integration with tools outside Edius and if the engineers could explain how the codec works internally with regards to the settings we are commonly working with such as the trillions of colours etc when exporting from 3rd party apps with HQX 10bit video.

Interestingly the Blackmagic 10bit 422 codec is available from the QT exporter in Edius - if you have it installed and it does have the option for trillions of colours... but there does seem to be a slight gamma shift to the original file. It seems fine out of AE as an VFW avi though.

Obviously more extensive tests need to be done with more codecs, gradients etc and an proper 10bit grade monitor... which is on the todo list but probably not untill we have a full version to play with.

Best
Dave.

[GrassValley_SL]

There is 10 bit export out of EDIUS and it is clearly written if you use the codec from the Quicktime HQX category.

You don't need trillions of colors to export YUV 4:2:2 10 bit using our codec.

While this is a bit old it may be usefull:

http://www.footagebank.com/hd_guide_web.pdf

Quote: a) HD resolution QuickTime movie file (.mov) using an uncompressed 10-bit codec with millions of colors and 4:2:2 color sampling

[NakedEye]

There is 10 bit export out of EDIUS and it is clearly written if you use the codec from the Quicktime HQX category.

You don't need trillions of colors to export YUV 4:2:2 10 bit using our codec.

While this is a bit old it may be usefull:
http://www.footagebank.com/hd_guide_web.pdf

Hi Steve

I guess your not familiar with the trial version as those options are clearly not available. But this is great news if it is in the full version and working.... awesom.

Can you tell me how do we bring our 10bit HQX back into Edius after working in AE?

Best
Dave.

[GrassValley_SL]

Well it depends if you use AE on a Mac or PC.

[NakedEye]

Well an example of both ways would be great as we use PC in house but have many clients on mac.

Best
Dave.

[Jerry]

I don't have a mac but I figure it has to be similar.
You don't have to do anything fancy. It is a output to HQX. Now if you want alpha then you have to select 1 extra item.

OUTPUT TO EDIUS.wmv

[NakedEye]

Thanks Jerry for posting... sorry if I was confusing as I know mechanically how to do simple exports to HQX from AE.. I was more after an explanation on what is currently unknown to me.. which is how to maintain 10bit YUV depth on HQX export from a 16 or 32bit AE project. As you can see in your example Millions of Colours + is the highest available option for HQX which would suggest an 8bit + alpha end result 256x256x256 = 16777216. One would normally associate Trillions of Colours with 10bit exports from AE as in the case of the Blackmagic codecs or the ProResHQ on the mac side. 1024x1024x1024 = 1073741824.

As you know AE is working in RGB and when set at 16bits or 32bits per channel will interpolate manipulations made to your media whilst in these higher precision colour spaces to 10bit YUV with greater accuracy on export. I am hopeful that the HQX codec will take care of this internally but as you can see in AE, logic would say that its not possible if the millions of colours + is the only option.

Looking forward to some clarification.... heres hoping it is as simple as you suggest and we just need to choose HQX and press go.

Best regards
Dave.

[Jerry]

Steve reported this to Japan. Things pertaining to Mac codecs.

[NakedEye]

Hi Jerry... this is not specifically mac but is valid for both platforms. Steve any info?

Best
Dave.

[frenshprince]

Hi there,

I've made some test too, and am afraid to say that AE CS6 doesn't see HQX 10 bit video as 10 bit, but only 8 bit.

The only way to import a 10 bit video from Edius to AE cs6, wich is well interpreted, is to export in avi v210.

Even with 6.51 (trial), HQX 10 bit is still not reconized outside Edius as 10bit.

-------------

To be more precise :

If you want to send a 10-bit video from Edius to AE, you have to export an AVI uncompressed V210 file.
Then AE will see your video as 10 bit.

If you want to send back the 10-bit video from AE to Edius, you have to export a QT uncompressed yuv 10 bits 422 file.

Why QT and not AVI.
For an unknown reason, Edius doesnt recognize AVI v210 exported from AE as 10 bits.

That way you have a 10 bit workflow between these two softwares.

[NakedEye]

Well with the GV silence on this issue its been a month since the OP so it seems we are only marginally better of than with 6.07.... I have to say it is exceedingly frustrating that we have to go through all this niether confirm or deny rubbish again. GV documentation made claims of version 6x that it had 10bit compatible workflows with other post software.. it didnt and the documentation was pulled. The same claims have been made this time with 6.5 I am hopeful this time its good news. Unlike you I can go from Edius to AE CS4 with HQX avi and AE will see 10bits its the return trip that seems not to work.

Steve I think its time for some clarification HQX 10bit out of AE and back to Edius 6.5... QT and avi retaining 10bit please.

Best
Dave.

[frenshprince]

Hi Dave,

You said that CS4 sees your HQX files in 10 bit, as they are.
But How can you tell that, and are you sure they're truly interpreted as 10 bit ?

He's a way to confirm this point :

1) In your 10 bit project in Edius, create a NEW CLIP/SMPTE colors Bar, and add it to the timeline.

2) Cut at ten images (we don't need more), and export it two times :
One in uncompressed V210, and the other in HQX (Q :0 Size:100).

3) Then in AE, import both, and create one composition with the two clips.

4) Zoom in at 400%, to see only green to blue .

Your V210 video should look like this :


If your HQX is in deed seen at 10 bit, you should have an identical image.

If your HQX is seen as 8 bit, you should have this :


Differences are subtiles, but you can see a shift in colors.

Here's the two images mixed in one :


Of course, if you import the two videos in Edius, you'll see no diference between them, since Edius perfectly sees them as 10 bit.

[GrassValley_PS]

Please use Manage Attachments to attach photos!

[NakedEye]

Hi frenshprince

When I tested I used actual 10bit captures with visible gadiants in skys etc.

I will test again but not right now as we are busy and looking for a window to move to 6.5 for production. It would however be really helpful if GV could provide a white paper for best practice when round tripping with other post software. With the codecs now open for Mac and PC users (which GV have to be applauded for) the doors are open for Edius in a wider post arena... lets make sure we get it right and not mislead people with workflows that truncate halfway through the process... time is money after all and Edius can certainly save us time and hence......

Dave.