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Jitter on titles when importing old DV AVI in 720 50p project

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  • Jitter on titles when importing old DV AVI in 720 50p project

    I have been struggling with this for a while, and hope that there is someone that can help me. Note: I'm in PAL land.
    I'm working with a friend on a joined project in 720 50p (he has Edius 6), and need to import old DV AVI footage in this 720p project. When I play the captured DV material in Windows Media Player (or any other player), the titles are rock solid (still white title on a black background). When I import this in a 720 50p project, and put the footage on the timeline, the titles are jittery. I'll try to explain what I see: there seems to be a slight vertical movement up/down, which make horizontal lines in the title flicker. This flickering happens multiple times per second.

    Are we doing something wrong? Can this be avoided? We need to have a HD m2ts file as output.

  • #2
    Hi Leo.

    If you are using PAL DV material you should really be using a PAL interlaced timeline. If you try playing interlaced 25fps footage inside a 50 frame progressive project, you will usually see problems with vertical and horizontal motion. Plus you are up-converting at the same time, which wont be too good for any pre-rendered text. When you say the titles look jittery, you should also notice something similar with the video content. This is not an issue with Edius, as I have never seen an NLE that can do this and look good.

    Most people mixing formats like this will normally put up with some motion artifacts, if the interlaced footage is only a small part. For pro use, it is usual to process such footage with dedicated software/hardware, and then use the processed footage.

    Out of interest, try changing the field dominance of the source DV footage, even try changing it to progressive and see what happens. Although the right field dominance will show vertical issues, if by mistake it's wrong, it would look very bad. For whatever reason, sometimes forcing the source picture structure to progressive, can help.

    Just for your own curiosity, try playing the DV footage through other settings with high frame rates and sizes but interlaced, and see what the difference is. You may want to check it properly on an external TV. Depending on how much interlaced material is used in the final cut, and the target destination. You could experiment with doing a different cut by bringing in your mastered progressive footage into an interlaced project and re-inserting your DV footage at that point.

    Maybe someone like col lamb could give you some pointers, as he uses 50P, and may have had to integrate older PAL SD DV with his newer 50P stuff.

    Hope this helps.

    Dave.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks for the reply, Dave.
      I did some further testing: using a standard DV project, the titles are still jittery. Changing between upper and lower does not make any difference. Strangely enough, changing it to Progressive makes the titles rock solid again. However, the jaggy edges on diagonal lines become very apparent. I assume Edius makes this a 25p project, so I'm worried about camera movements being less smooth than the original 50i of my DV footage.

      I'm still confused why Edius cannot take 50i DV material into a PAL DV 50i project without jitter on the titles. One would expect this to work, no ?

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Dave for volunteering me;-)

        I will not be at my editing PC until tomorrow and so I cannot run a test on my system.

        In my earlier tests I have mixed footage 1080i, 1080p and DV on the same timeline to see how it performs and generally it has been OK with some artifacts present, I have even used layouter to "expand" the DV footage to see the end result.

        Incidentally I did the same using Premiere CS5.5 and E6 did give me better results

        If I was going to mix footage as described I'd probably re-encode the DV into and then use that in the 1080p project. Using T5 to upconvert DV footage did give me some aftifacts but the end results were acceptable for what I had in mind.

        If you have not tried T5 download the trial version, process some footage and see if that is OK, you will get watermarks here and there in the trial versions footage but it will give you some idea on the quality achievable, for the cost it is just about the best processing piece of software out there (in my humble opinion that is). OH yes T5 is TMPG 5 and costs $99 from Pegasus

        Regarding your smooth playback of titles - how do they play in the preview window, compared to the timeline window? What is the spec of your PC and which GPU do you have?

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Col, or should I say Mr. Progressive :)

          Leo. As Col is saying, try T5 for pre-processing your 25FPS interlaced footage. It does seem strange though that you are having motion problems playing the 25FPS interlaced DV footage in a standard PAL DV project. If you are changing field order etc. of the footage inside a PAL DV project and still seeing issues, it would suggest some other problem.

          Are you viewing the footage on a PC monitor or a proper external TV monitor? To be real safe with interlaced footage, it's best to check it via a GV output or firewire/convertor to a CRT monitor. At least this way you will know for sure if your field dominance is correct.

          Even in perfect situations, text can cause a number of problems anyway. Although it does seem that you may have some setup or monitor issues.

          What is the project for, it being 720/50P? Can you upload your EZP file?

          Cheers.

          dave
          Last edited by Red Union Films; 01-05-2012, 01:28 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            It seems to me that this jittery is caused by the splitted & then resized fields coming from interlaced source!
            Is it a kind of interlaced/line flicker? Your titles are visually progressive, but stored in intelraced flagged stream!

            Have in mind, your 25i DV footage contains nominal 50 fields per second!
            So the fields will be just splitted & interpolated/resized inside a 50p project!
            Due to the resolution & due to the fact that every field will miss the other complementary
            one the lines will flicker & small titles will lost a lot details if the fields will be just resized!
            A better way is deinterlace the footage motion adaptive & then resizing it!
            If you would like get better results you need to preprocess such files &
            convert these with more optimized / specialized software!

            Send me just a short clip & I will send you back a proper converted file if you want!
            Andreas Gumm
            post production / authoring
            PC 1Intel Core i7-970 (6 x 3.20 GHz),
            ASUS P6T Deluxe V2, 12 GB RAM, Geforce 9800GT
            Windows 7 Ultimate,
            GV software: EDIUS 7.42, VisTitle v2.5,
            GV hardware: 3G Storm
            software SONY DoStudio Indie + EX 4.0.11
            PC 2
            Intel Core i7-3770, GIGABYTE Z77X-UD5H F14, 16GB RAM,
            Geforce 650 GTX, 5x HDD, Windows 7,
            GV software: EDIUS 7.42, ProCoder 3.0
            GV hardware: HD SPARK
            software: Telestream Switch, DTS-HD MAS, Dolby Media Meter

            Comment


            • #7
              Another thing to try is to make the player window in Edius go full-screen by double-clicking it. I've worked with footage that had the vertical edges broken up while playing the timeline, but the problem did not manifest itself after exporting or when viewing the same clips in a full-screen player.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm really pleased with the response I'm getting on my question. It's a warm feeling to know that there are still people out there who want to help !

                To answer to some of your specific questions:
                Col Lamb - specs of the system?: it's a rather "old" Core2 E8400 @3.2 Ghz with 4 GB of ram and the GPU is a Nvidia GeForce 8400 GS. I know it's up for replacement, but it does handle AVCHD 1920x1080 50p footage at 28 Mbps when 1 layer. If more layers, it needs to render.

                Col Lamb - regarding your smooth playback of titles - how do they play in the preview window, compared to the timeline window?: if we play the DV AVI file in Windows Media Player, the titles are rock solid. As soon as we bring them into E6 they are jittery in any window.

                Andreas Gumm - Is it a kind of interlaced/line flicker?: yes it is Interlace type flicker. I will try your suggestion of using TMPG 5 software to make it progressive and see what it does to the footage.

                THoff - the problem did not manifest itself after exporting or when viewing the same clips in a full-screen player: it does. I tried to use the exported .m2ts file on a high-end beamer (>6000 euro) and it "corrects" more than half of the jitter, although it is still moderately visible.

                As a further experiment, I went to someone with CS5.5 and tried the same thing: import the DV AVI into a 720x576 50i project (avoiding the resizing for the time being). Guess what: rock solid titles on timeline and on the exported file! So what is it that CS5.5 can do without problem, that E6 cannot do?

                On the comment of Andreas on the p vs i: I still do not understand why a still picture of black and white dots (white still title on black background) would start to flicker when moving the information from Interlaced to Progressive (staying within the same 720x576 size). With moving titles I could understand, but with still titles, the black dots on the even and odd fields will remain like this when transferred into the progressive version and the same for the white dots. Why would this flicker?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Videast View Post
                  On the comment of Andreas on the p vs i: I still do not understand why a still picture of black and white dots (white still title on black background) would start to flicker when moving the information from Interlaced to Progressive (staying within the same 720x576 size). With moving titles I could understand, but with still titles, the black dots on the even and odd fields will remain like this when transferred into the progressive version and the same for the white dots. Why would this flicker?
                  That's why your title is visually progressive, but it's stored in an interlaced flagged stream!
                  The decoder in EDIUS & in all other NLE's will process 'interlaced' footage fieldwise!
                  So the frame (visually) will be splitted into fields!
                  The fields will be sorted on playback one after each other!
                  That's why line flickers!

                  fieldwise processing does:
                  1. splitting frames in fields
                    (some NLEs will interpolate to full frames after splitting to have better quality when processing)
                  2. processing
                  3. reinterlace the processed fields

                  Framewise:
                  1. just processing!

                  What happens on playback with interlaced footage on progressive displays (LCDs, plasma):
                  1. splitting frames in fields,
                  2. resize it to full frame

                  The quality depends on how good works the scaling & motion compensation algorithm is!

                  If you flag the footage manually as progressive the whole frame will be processed!
                  No splitting into fields, just processing!
                  The framerate in NLE will be doubled by blending or just by frame repeating.
                  Andreas Gumm
                  post production / authoring
                  PC 1Intel Core i7-970 (6 x 3.20 GHz),
                  ASUS P6T Deluxe V2, 12 GB RAM, Geforce 9800GT
                  Windows 7 Ultimate,
                  GV software: EDIUS 7.42, VisTitle v2.5,
                  GV hardware: 3G Storm
                  software SONY DoStudio Indie + EX 4.0.11
                  PC 2
                  Intel Core i7-3770, GIGABYTE Z77X-UD5H F14, 16GB RAM,
                  Geforce 650 GTX, 5x HDD, Windows 7,
                  GV software: EDIUS 7.42, ProCoder 3.0
                  GV hardware: HD SPARK
                  software: Telestream Switch, DTS-HD MAS, Dolby Media Meter

                  Comment

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