Export "WebHD" video in Edius -- ANY conversion involved?

[OneQuickSix]

Hi. I do a LOT of what I like to call "WebHD" resolution video. That is, 1/2 720p (i.e. 640x360), as it suites a LOT of people's needs without the overhead of doing everything in 720p when I'm rendering 3D animations, After Effects projects, etc. -- thus saving me a lot of time.

However, bringing these 640x360 materials into Edius (say 4.5 or 5.5 ... I don't use 6 a whole lot yet) I choose a 1280x720, 29.97p preset (Generic OHCI HD 60hz) as it is the closest thing to what I am importing (640x360, 29.97p, Canopus Lossless (since HQ does not support 640x360 unfortunately).

Anyway, what I'm wondering is, when I export back out to 640x360 (I use ProCoder Express when using V4.5 as it is the only way to specify the resolution/dimensions when exporting Canopus Lossless), is there any type of conversion/re-conversion going on? That is, hopefully it is not stretching it out to 1280x720, then "re-shrinking" it back down to 640x360. My impression was that the project settings are JUST THAT, "project settings" and are used during the editing process only.

Also, if I understand correctly, ideally I would want to use Canopus Lossless (as opposed to Canopus HQ) for my "Render Format" in Project Settings since that is the format of most (if not all) my imported files, and this is the format used for any required timeline rendering, correct?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help shed some light on either of these questions!

All the best,
Tim

[NakedEye]

I think you will find that you are indeed up-scaling on import and down scaling on export. Use Edius 6.03 as you can have custom frame sizes.

Best
Dave.

[Rusty]

Sounds like you're ready for E6 full-time...
E4/5 has to up-scale to edit, then down-scale to output. Making little sense now-a-days.

I'm of the impression that "Render Format" refers to timeline renders (transitions, R&ATT, red notifications, etc.)

[OneQuickSix]

Thanks guys. I would like to know for sure (can anyone from Canopus confirm ... Mr. Sparkle, are you out there?), as using E6 is not my optimum choice at the moment.

That was one of my number-one complaints/wish list items for Edius over the many years -- support for completely custom project settings. With it's ability for so many mixed formats etc, this was always really shocking to me.

Also, I wish Canopus versions could coexist like MOST other apps (i.e AE, all my 3D apps, Audio Apps, the list goes on, and on ...) without creating a dual-boot system, etc. I have 4.5 machine for which I still use my Storm2 setup as (believe it or not) there are still people needing DV and analog capture work done, and it is a really nice, rock-solid system. 5.5 on one laptop, and 6 on another. I miss some things from each version, going BOTH ways, as I'm sure many do.

Anyway, sorry to blather on. IF this is indeed the case, then I should probably install Premiere CS4 (which I've been avoiding) and do these simple edits in it I suppose.

[GrassValley_SL]

EDIUS6 allows fro custom framesizes from 24x24 to 4096x2160

[OneQuickSix]

EDIUS6 allows fro custom framesizes from 24x24 to 4096x2160

Right, I knew it was something ridiculously high (and low) like that. Will install 6 on my next desktop system build (hopefully coming soon), but just tinkering with it for now on my other laptop.

Any insight into the original question, Steve?

Thanks,
Tim

[Red Union Films]

Hi Tim.

For what you are doing if you want maximum quality without too many transcodes and re-sizes you have two options. Make your original 3D/animations/AE files in one of the recognised broadcast standards. It seems strange to do master timelines or comps in anything other than standard sizes due to problems like the one you have. Then you can use 4 or 5 with these standard sizes. Or use 6, and most nearly any project size you want you can have. As for the internal render codec or ingest/export. If you are dealing with anything that is of master quality generated in the likes of AE and is animation, I would suggest using uncompressed.

What is the colour bit depth of your original animation source projects? Depending on what you are expecting to do in Edius, there is a good chance that you are going to drop everything down to 8bit. Which more than likely wont be a problem for your web delivery, but could be for final masters.

Cheers.

Dave.

[OneQuickSix]

Thanks for the input, Dave.

It seems strange to do master timelines or comps in anything other than standard sizes due to problems like the one you have.

Like I mentioned, an extraordinary number of clients don't require true-HD, and I don't know how much experience you have with rendering (especially 3D rendering), but going from 640x360 to 1080x720 is a gigantic leap in rendering time, PLUS it's much easier to work with during the design stage.

Hi Tim.

What is the colour bit depth of your original animation source projects? Depending on what you are expecting to do in Edius, there is a good chance that you are going to drop everything down to 8bit. Which more than likely wont be a problem for your web delivery, but could be for final masters.

Exactly. I always set up AE for sRGB 8-bit color-space (unless it it going to DVD or something) for these jobs as they are web-only, thus the "WebHD™" resolution as well. Not that you can't take advantage of 720p (or more) on the Web, but for most it is simply overkill.

Best,
Tim

[Red Union Films]

Hi Tim.

Totally get the rendering thing, and I don't do 3D, so can only imagine the head ache of watching paint dry.

Yes, if your target is only ever going to be one thing, then going higher at the cost of way more added time is not such a good suggestion. I only do 2D stuff, so shooting at standard HD sizes and then re-sizing the master, does not present such a problem.

Maybe give version 6 a good go. At least this way, working 8bit and off standard video sizes with AE or other apps, will fit directly into 6 for your final scene edits etc. I worked on a odd sized flash type banner in 6, and all went as smooth as expected. Seeing as you are going to be doing 8bit colour. Working with the HQ codec between your Adobe stuff and Edius, may give you the best of both worlds. It will be easier to work with in Edius and requires less power and drives than uncompressed, and when the codec is set to max it really is indistinguishable by eye to an RGB master. The HQX codec may even be worth looking into for certain things. In 6 I am quite sure the HQ codec is fully scalable, if not then HQX definitely is.

For your web delivery, check out this thread. I bang on all the time like a broken record about the X264 encoder, but it really is excellent for most targets including web. There is a simple downloadable test project, and a few online streaming examples at various bitrates.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.


dave.

[mattmatt]

Hi Tim.

Totally get the rendering thing, and I don't do 3D, so can only imagine the head ache of watching paint dry.

Yes, if your target is only ever going to be one thing, then going higher at the cost of way more added time is not such a good suggestion. I only do 2D stuff, so shooting at standard HD sizes and then re-sizing the master, does not present such a problem.

Maybe give version 6 a good go. At least this way, working 8bit and off standard video sizes with AE or other apps, will fit directly into 6 for your final scene edits etc. I worked on a odd sized flash type banner in 6, and all went as smooth as expected. Seeing as you are going to be doing 8bit colour. Working with the HQ codec between your Adobe stuff and Edius, may give you the best of both worlds. It will be easier to work with in Edius and requires less power and drives than uncompressed, and when the codec is set to max it really is indistinguishable by eye to an RGB master. The HQX codec may even be worth looking into for certain things. In 6 I am quite sure the HQ codec is fully scalable, if not then HQX definitely is.

For your web delivery, check out this thread. I bang on all the time like a broken record about the X264 encoder, but it really is excellent for most targets including web. There is a simple downloadable test project, and a few online streaming examples at various bitrates.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.


dave.

HQ codec isn't flexible with frame sizes....gotta be the awesome new HQX :)

[Red Union Films]

Hi Matt.

Like I said, I was not so sure about HQ but defo HQX. Although I seem to remember doing a none standard frame size in 6 using HQ. Must have been HQX.


Cheers.

Dave.

[AJL14]

Tim,
A quick word from someone who was "stuck" with 5.51, and didn't want to upgrade my computer just for E6. After v6.03 and a lot of most helpful guys on this forum, I finally did, and would never look back. There's a world of positive difference - especially in E6's ability to do what you need, so I would encourage you to upgrade your computer as soon as financially feasible and move to E6. Time is money, and the elimination of most of your problems and the time it takes you to deliver what you want, would be most rewarded with E6.03.

That's about it! Good luck.
Alan

[OneQuickSix]

Thanks for all the replies guys. And Alan, thanks for the words and relating your experience on E6.x. I have used it to cut a few things and realize a lot of it getting used to some of the changes. Some are great, others not so much, but this isn't why I haven't moved on to it.

It's kind of crazy remembering to do things one way on 4.x, then another way on 5.x, and still another on 6. Once I have my new system built, it will have V6 ... so then I'll just be going back and forth between V4.5 and V6. I don't if I will ever not have a use for my Storm system ... well, a long time now anyway.

For now, if it is indeed true that Edius 4/5 are transcoding it during the edit process, than I will probably just install Premiere Pro CS4 until my next system build. Still would like to get a definitive answer on this from someone. Someone at Canopus must know. Where is Mr. Sparkle ... err, Brandon these days?

Best,
Tim

[OneQuickSix]

Can someone from Canopus (or anyone) give a definitive answer regarding this question?

Thanks,
Tim