Edius 6.03 and those pesky N and M keys

[Claire]

On upgrading from 6.02 to 6.03 I find that the Extend Clips when adding a transition bug is still there so I have decided to work with it always unselected and be prepared to make sure I have adequate handles on clips where I want to add transitions. This way I can continue using the M and N keys in the timeline to trim my clips.

However, this seems new.. when I press M the clip that had it's outpoint trimmed back a bit becomes selected/highlighted and if I don't de-select it, then when I add a transition it goes on the beginning of that selected clip instead of it's end, despite the cursor being at it's end.

In effect the transition goes on the wrong cut point and if that cut point is out of sight the whole timeline jumps to it so I wonder what the heck has happened.

Example: clips 1, 2, 3
Trim back the end of clip 2 a little with M key.
The cursor is now on the cut point between clips 2 and 3
Add a transition, instead of it going between clips 2 and 3 it goes between clips 1 and 2.

Furthermore, whereas in 6.02 if I worked with Extend Clips ticked to overcome the Extend Clips bug, if there were not enough handles between clips it was impossible to add a transition. This was to be expected, but in 6.03 what happens is that a dissolve is added to the mixer track of the clip left of where I expect the transition to appear.

So one needs to be aware of what is happening to keep sane!

[Jerry]

Claire,
I have 3 clips on one timeline. I highlight the clip that I want to trim, I then move the curser back to the cut point and I press alt+M. This cuts and ripples the clips. I have my settings as do not extend and ripple off with insert editing.
Right after I do the alt+M on clip 2, I hit ctrl+P. My transition goes in between 2 and 3.
If I do alt+N it cuts to the left and ripples so that the cursor is between 1 and 2. I hit CTRL+P and the transition is added between 1 and 2.

If you are running with ripple on, turn it off. Adding alt to your n and m keys adds ripple when you need it.

[GrassValley_PS]

I am a bit confused. It sounds like you are editing with Ripple Mode on. As Jerry suggested, save yourself some grief and edit with ripple mode off.

IIRC, the bug was when extend clips was NOT checked that there were problems with M and N. I train hundreds of people a month in this and have never had a problem with N, M, Alt N and Alt M working correctly with Extend Clips checked and Ripple Mode Off.

Also I am puzzled by your explanation of the transition with no handles. In this situation the transition has always dropped to the keyer track. The thing that you do have to be aware of in E6 is that in the past if you tried to add something to the keyer track and it was already populated, it just would not add anything. Now it will overwrite what is there.

[Claire]

Claire,
I have 3 clips on one timeline. I highlight the clip that I want to trim, I then move the curser back to the cut point and I press alt+M. This cuts and ripples the clips. I have my settings as do not extend and ripple off with insert editing.
Right after I do the alt+M on clip 2, I hit ctrl+P. My transition goes in between 2 and 3.
If I do alt+N it cuts to the left and ripples so that the cursor is between 1 and 2. I hit CTRL+P and the transition is added between 1 and 2.

If you are running with ripple on, turn it off. Adding alt to your n and m keys adds ripple when you need it.

Hi Jerry, always nice to get a quick reply, sorry I made a mistake in the beginning of my post, I meant to say I have decided to work with extend clips always ***SELECTED*** (box ticked) to try and avoid this bug. Sorry for confusing you and Pat.

Well in fact it makes no difference to what is happening, despite having ripple mode off and extend clips selected or not and despite using insert or overwrite mode.

What you described works fine for me too, (I changed to ripple mode off) but it only works one time, when I skip a couple of clips and try again furthe along the timeline it's doing it wrong again. The transition insists on going onto the "in point" of the highlighted clip, which is a clip too soon, unfortunately this state of affairs is erratic.

To demonstrate here are some screen shots,

Steps 1,2 and 3 are all with 'Extend Clips' box ticked, note the transition gets put on the left end of the clip instead of where the cursor is and the 4th screen shot shows what happens if I have 'Extend Clips' unticked. In that instance because there is no extra material or "handles" on the earlier clips it still wants to put a transition there instead of where it should be, so it resorts to placing it still in the wrong place but on the keyer track.

Neither of these are what one expects. The only way I can avoid this happening is to either deselect the clip immediately after pressing Alt M or trim the start of the next clip (to the right of the cut). In either of these case the clip to the left is then never left selected and the problem does not arrive.

As I say it's not consistant, never works properly for long. If you don't see the same thing happening then maybe I should contemplate a complete fresh install.

[GrassValley_SL]

I think I know what the issue is.
If you have extend transitions on EDIUS can extend both the left and right clip.
Since the clip after the one where the alt+M is at absolute in if you drop the clip on the first clip (selected) EDIUS will not be able to drop the transition because you are telling it to extend the the clip on the right but it cannot be done since it is at absolute in.

You can drop the transition without an issue :
1 if you drop it in the clip with the absolute in because that will make the clip on the left on which you performed the alt+M extend.
2 you can drop it at cursor position. Via the button

The one in point 1 is easier

Remember ripple off

[Jerry]

Claire, here are my screen shots:

These are the Alt M and Ctrl P sections




These are the Alt N and Ctrl P sections


Look at these and make sure that I am doing what you are requesting. I believe we are on the same page
and we are getting different results....for whatever reason. Let me know if it is incorrect.

I highlight the center clip before I do anything to that clip in each screen shot.
I then move the cursor back to where I want the cut and then I apply the keystroke.
This works for me over several tries on an hour long timeline.
The one thing you should notice is that on a non-extended clip I get a full 1 sec effect as opposed to app half of that on the extended clip. This is also another selection that gets toggled during editing. I usually run non-extended and then when certain transitions need to be in there(multicam for one) I toggle it.

The one constant is that I am working from that center clip. This is where are the cuts happen and the transition is applied either to the left or right of the cut.
Everything was applied by using keystrokes.
I watched as two sets of students (2 four hour classes) used about 10-12 computers with EDIUS on them applying exactly this technique without issue. I have never been a big keystoke user but I am learning....especially after doing that class.

[Claire]

Jerry, yes I can replicate that, however for instance with your Alt M example trimming back the end of the middle clip, following your instructions I cannot use my keyboard short cut to add the transition since this is where it goes wrong, I need to place it manually on the next clip, the one with the "absolute in" as Pat just stated.

Since you cannot do this without either picking up the mouse and drag/dropping the transition from the effects panel onto your chosen clip (which I think Pat was showing in his movie), this is not something I would have wanted to do, it's too slow dealing with many clips. The alternative is to use Alt +right cursor key to move focus to that clip, I do use that a lot for other things so no big problem but how many keyboard short cuts is that, did you use three? More than two I guess? Or did you pick up the mouse at that point.

1) Alt M
2) Alt >
3) Ctrl P

[GrassValley_PS]

A few of the things that I tell new Edius users...
1. To be a fast editor you must use 2 hands
2. To be the fastest editor you must use both the mouse and keyboard shortcuts.

You can mouse select a clip in most instances infinitely faster than with a shortcut. Ctrl P is not a very good shortcut because it is so far apart on the keyboard and will require both hands in most cases. If you want to be a keyboard only editor or a mouse only editor you will have to accept that you are going to be slower and require extra steps in some instances.

To me you really have 2 choices at the moment.
1. Alt M to trim, click the clip to the right (these two things can be done almost simultaneously as the first is done with jest the left hand and the second with just the right hand...assuming you are right handed), hit Ctrl P
2. Alt M to trim and drag and drop the transition to that cut point.

Do you usually have just the one clip trimmed on the end and not the beginning of the second clip? I would guess that in most instances both sides would be trimmed. In which case you would just do Alt M on the one, Alt N on the other and then Ctrl P to apply the transition between the 2.

[Claire]

I agree one needs to do use both keys and mouse, I do.. all the time. In this instance I did not realise for a while that in your's and Jerries replies the suggested workflow relied on moving the focus manually from the clip the Alt M had left highlighted to the clip to the right of it, when the penny dropped on me you were both doing this (in different ways) I understood where I was going wrong.

As we know this is not necessary in Edius 5 where having extend transitions unticked avoids this extra work, with ripple on in Edius 5 I only ever needed to use M and N (no alt) and the transition went in the expected place regardless of handles on one or the other clip. Too sweet! Fast editing...

Now that I know one must select the clip manually before using the transition short cut key I will just get on with it.

BTW, I don't use Ctrl P, never did for the reason you mentioned, I have F11 do this as it's only a one finger push.

The times I trim only the outgoing clip of a pair is when I am editing footage taken from a small camera on a very lightweight tripod that starts recording smoothly enough as when record is pressed it takes a moment to get going, but unfortunately pressing stop shakes the camera so clips start nice but end with a jump. In the edit I only need to trim off the jumpy ends of the outgoing clips and not the incoming clip. I don't ever do this for footage otherwise, no problem from the EX1R with it's on/off on a lanc and the cam sitting on a Vinten 3AS... of course!

[Jerry]

Glad you got it to work. As far as Edius 5, I used the same settings then
as I do now. I have ripple off because of the reason
I gave earlier. By adding alt you add ripple when
you need it.

It seems that I missed the fact that you did not trim the front part of the 2nd clip. Sorry about that. I was able to just trim with alt m and either Ctrl P or click on the transition button and it worked fine. It is all in telling Edius which clip you are working on.

[GrassValley_SL]

Glad this is sorted and btw Pat and I are 2 different persons Claire. :)

[GrassValley_PS]

What? ... We are?

[GrassValley_SL]

LOL.... ...