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  • Edius and Quicktime video codecs.

    Hi All.

    Does anyone out there have any success with being able to export high quality Quicktime codecs from Edius, to be used as intermediates, mostly with FCP. I have tried many ways, including DNxHD, but there is always a problem with a shift in the ranges. Bit depth is not an issue for me, 8bit is fine, as long as there is no shift.

    Thanks in advance.

    Dave.

  • #2
    Are you sure it's Edius?

    I have a Panasonic AF100, and when that camera came out, there was a lot of criticism of the picture quality and bad video noise from some people, but over on DVXUser (AF100 forum), it all turned out that different FCP versions were treating imported video levels differently, and it took months for some wise heads to sort through the maze on that one.

    Cheers,

    Vaughan
    Main Edit System ASUS Z170-Pro, 6700K, 32 gig ram HD Spark, Windows 7 64bit Edius 8.1 (Edit Machine)
    2nd System Intel DZ77BH, 3770K, 16 GB ram, Edius 8.1 (ingest and authoring)
    3rd system (internet & Printing station)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Vaughan Wood View Post
      Are you sure it's Edius?

      I have a Panasonic AF100, and when that camera came out, there was a lot of criticism of the picture quality and bad video noise from some people, but over on DVXUser (AF100 forum), it all turned out that different FCP versions were treating imported video levels differently, and it took months for some wise heads to sort through the maze on that one.

      Cheers,

      Vaughan
      Hi Vaughan.

      No, it's not Edius. It's an issue that's been around for a very long time. It's to do with Quicktime and the way it decodes the picture. If you do a google on Quicktime gamma you will find a lot of info on it, or check this http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1027614 I was just trying to find out if any of the later QT codecs had been treated differently, as the gamma shift does change a certain degree between different ones. But this can also be down to RGB range and the colour space. Either way, Quicktime does get in the middle of things and try to force a compensation that is not needed, at least on the PC platform for NLE's. Even using the Avid codecs as an export and import option, will give shifts at different levels with different variations on the codec used, whether it's gamma or RGB range or colour space it's still there.

      Having not used the AF100 but knowing how good Panasonic are, I would never expect a problem with it. If even FCP users with different versions of QT have issues, and they are on an Apple platform with Apple software and Apple QT, it does not bode well for the rest of the Universe.

      Would you mind posting a clip from the camera for me to have a look at, have never seen the quality from one first hand. If you go to www.mediafire.com you can upload up to 200 Meg quite easily.

      Cheers.

      Dave.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Dave

        I seem to remember reading on the FCP Users forum LA something regarding the difference in gamma when viewing QT files on a Mac vs PC where it was mentioned that Apple did this to make viewing on Apple cinema displays appear in their view more correct. I also read it was not a QT encoding function rather only for QT file playback, however, ask any after effects users (myself included) and there is most definitely a shift that has to be compensated for when round tripping files from NLE's to AE and back. Agreed this is not ideal but I use the AE RGB curves to match back to the NLE.
        Ronnie
        System 2: Gigabyte GA-890FX UD7MB, CPU: Phenom II 6 Core Proc. @ 3.1 Ghz, RAM:16GB Vengeance RAM 4x4GB, Graphics Nvidia GTX560ti, 1x240GB OCZ SSD system, 4x1TB WD Black Ent. Drives Raid 0. LAN NAS 6TB backup.
        O/S Windows 7 64bit Pro SP 1, Edius 6.5.2 Boris Red 5.22, VMW 5, Imaginate 2.0 5, Vistitle, LGx2 Blu-ray. 2xw2228h Monitors. HDSpark, BM UltraStudio SDI Capture & Playback,Sony 17" BVM SDI, Sony 32" LCD, Edius KB, Intuos 4 Tablet

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by abcronnie View Post
          Hi Dave

          I seem to remember reading on the FCP Users forum LA something regarding the difference in gamma when viewing QT files on a Mac vs PC where it was mentioned that Apple did this to make viewing on Apple cinema displays appear in their view more correct. I also read it was not a QT encoding function rather only for QT file playback, however, ask any after effects users (myself included) and there is most definitely a shift that has to be compensated for when round tripping files from NLE's to AE and back. Agreed this is not ideal but I use the AE RGB curves to match back to the NLE.
          Ronnie
          Hi Ronnie.

          You are absolutely correct, but it is not only just there for apple cinema displays, it has been there forever. The whole gamma thing is applied by QT an not necessarily the NLE or rendering device, but because QT is part of the decoder/encoder from NLE's it appears and may well get hard coded at some point going between machines. I am familiar with your shifting workflow, but while this does work, I would rather not have to second guess or destroy either the gamma or RGB levels. Add to this colour space issues, and it is a real head ache.

          Cheers mate.

          Dave.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Dave
            I use to use the earlier versions of QT Pro where they had a checkbox you could change the colour space but you are right they (Apple) have removed this facility from the later versions. I am using QT Pro 7.6.9 and the problem exists. It seems there is an absolute furore from FCP and Avid users on the various Apple forums around, anyway I gues with FCP X on the horizon, QT or whatever it will become may resolve this, I wouldn't hold my breath though.
            Regards
            Ronnie
            Last edited by abcronnie; 05-30-2011, 05:55 PM. Reason: Spelling
            System 2: Gigabyte GA-890FX UD7MB, CPU: Phenom II 6 Core Proc. @ 3.1 Ghz, RAM:16GB Vengeance RAM 4x4GB, Graphics Nvidia GTX560ti, 1x240GB OCZ SSD system, 4x1TB WD Black Ent. Drives Raid 0. LAN NAS 6TB backup.
            O/S Windows 7 64bit Pro SP 1, Edius 6.5.2 Boris Red 5.22, VMW 5, Imaginate 2.0 5, Vistitle, LGx2 Blu-ray. 2xw2228h Monitors. HDSpark, BM UltraStudio SDI Capture & Playback,Sony 17" BVM SDI, Sony 32" LCD, Edius KB, Intuos 4 Tablet

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Ronnie.

              Yes, it's a serious issue, especially if files need to do a round trip to a few different systems and processes. Manual attenuation by artificially compensating may just about work for one jump, but if this procedure is done a few times I think it has a compounding effect as QT decodes between each go.

              The last post facility we used done client and internal transfers all via SDI. They had Avid editing machines on QT, and Avid effects machines on AVI (cant remember the effects machine). Their internal transfer was all via the switches in the machine room over SDI, I assume this was to overcome the incompatibility with gamma on file based transfers. It struck me as odd at first that we went onto their systems via Edius being slaved in VTR mode and SDI to do real time transfers. But at least this way QT does not get in the way.

              Have you had any experience with the Black Magic QT codecs, and do they work in Edius 6. As in have you tried exporting a time line out to BM QT and imported straight back into the master time line for an A/B test? Or does anyone else reading know the answer?

              Cheers mate.

              Dave.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Dave

                I actually don't use my BM card for Edius 6.02 as it is not recognized by Edius. No drivers yet I think they are on the roadmap for later this year. I use Declink capture for HD/SD SDI ingest at 10 bit for After Effects and Blender 3D. I only ever use Animation Codec when I need to round trip files between say FCP, Avid or Smoke because of the shift described in this thread. Invariably if the file is a final render and is going to grading then I believe this workflow offers the best alternative to using QT as the file acquisition format. This also is transparent if I include the final render into an Edius timeline. So I guess the bottom line for me is to stay away from QT encoding/decoding. The Animation codec is also particularly good when it comes to Blue screen work whereas QT I have found to be problematic. I also usually stay 10 Bit 4:2:2 colourspace. 4:2:0 doesn't cut it IMHO. I am still waiting for delivery of my Storm 3G and HDSpark cards so that I can take advantage of the HQ/HQX codecs. Been 3 weeks now.

                Regards
                Ronnie
                Last edited by abcronnie; 05-31-2011, 03:05 AM.
                System 2: Gigabyte GA-890FX UD7MB, CPU: Phenom II 6 Core Proc. @ 3.1 Ghz, RAM:16GB Vengeance RAM 4x4GB, Graphics Nvidia GTX560ti, 1x240GB OCZ SSD system, 4x1TB WD Black Ent. Drives Raid 0. LAN NAS 6TB backup.
                O/S Windows 7 64bit Pro SP 1, Edius 6.5.2 Boris Red 5.22, VMW 5, Imaginate 2.0 5, Vistitle, LGx2 Blu-ray. 2xw2228h Monitors. HDSpark, BM UltraStudio SDI Capture & Playback,Sony 17" BVM SDI, Sony 32" LCD, Edius KB, Intuos 4 Tablet

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Ronnie.

                  Although you don't use the BM hardware with Edius, does edius see the codec via it's QT exporter under the QT codecs option?

                  What are the advantages of the animation codec, and does this help in Edius? As in, if you use it to export from Edius then re-import back and do an A/B test is the picture still the same? I can try this myself but would like to know someone else's results for comparison, there is a chance I could be doing something wrong.

                  I have not tried every QT codec. But all the ones I have tried doing my straight I/O test, have all had problems.

                  The strange thing with all this is if you compress to H264 using X264 from say a HQ/HQX master and bring it back into Edius. Aside from 10 bit HQX being knocked down to 8 Bit H264, the H264 encodes do not change gamma, even though Edius uses QT as the decompresser for this format. This would suggest that QT puts a gamma flag into what it compresses to H264 and acts accordingly on decompression for the Apple gamma standard. But QT can and does change gamma on H264/MP4 files that where not used by it to do the compression, at least on the PC platform. I have confirmed this by doing encode tests on an Edius 6 PC system that had no QT installation on it.

                  If the above is of interest to you, try downloading the Edius/X264 project I done. It comes with an Edius exported XDCAM EX clip and the same footage in X264/H264.

                  http://ediusforum.grassvalley.com/fo...ad.php?t=22275

                  Yes 10 Bit is best for wider workflows, but for my own production work and not the film work, I only use an EX3 anyway. I would like to move to maybe the Panasonic 10 Bit 100Mbit Intraframe codec, for ease of use and quality. I find the whole workflow of adding a recording unit to a small camcorder a bit negative for my own personal use. I love the EX3 and it's ability to be very easy and quick to use when doing different physical setups, adding extra weight to it or putting any rigging on it, would be no use to me as I normally shoot on my own. The extra hardware and rigging for SDI 10 Bit recording is a great idea, if you are shooting drama with a crew. But I doubt it would be used this way for ENG or one man on the fly shooting. I would of course change my mind if a recording unit came out with HQX codec as it's acquisition format.

                  The next big thing will be when one of the decent camcorder manufacturers brings out a small form camcorder like the EX3 etc. that shoots to 2.5" SSD removable drives. This could even be done using some of the Sony HDCAM-SR formats.

                  Give me a PM when you start running E6 with hardware if you need a sounding board.

                  Cheers mate.

                  Long live the oscillator :)

                  Dave.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Dave
                    Just finished downloading your sequence & files will have look at the comparison. BTW is the EX3 8 Bit 4:2:0 or 4:2:2?

                    Regards
                    Ronnie
                    System 2: Gigabyte GA-890FX UD7MB, CPU: Phenom II 6 Core Proc. @ 3.1 Ghz, RAM:16GB Vengeance RAM 4x4GB, Graphics Nvidia GTX560ti, 1x240GB OCZ SSD system, 4x1TB WD Black Ent. Drives Raid 0. LAN NAS 6TB backup.
                    O/S Windows 7 64bit Pro SP 1, Edius 6.5.2 Boris Red 5.22, VMW 5, Imaginate 2.0 5, Vistitle, LGx2 Blu-ray. 2xw2228h Monitors. HDSpark, BM UltraStudio SDI Capture & Playback,Sony 17" BVM SDI, Sony 32" LCD, Edius KB, Intuos 4 Tablet

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Ronnie.

                      It's only 8 Bit 4:2:0 off the SXS cards, but 10 Bit 4:2:2 from lens to SDI. If you get your exposure and colour/look setup right when shooting to the cards, and only need to do slight balancing in post. You can get great results for normal HDTV/DVD/Blu-ray type stuff, as these are only 8 Bit anyway and so are most domestic playback devices and screens.

                      In my experience you do not get any better latitude when working 10 Bit plus with 8 Bit footage for grading, when going back to 8 Bit for the master. I have seen this when working with a DaVinci opperator. Even though DaVanci can re-map into a massive colour space and generate extra colour info in system, you need the monitoring and recording devices to see this from the final master. As any of this stuff is mastered back to 8 Bit you are only going back to a restricted coulour space/depth anyway. This is why for me, Edius with the HQ codec is perfect for my EX and similar footage. Working 10 Bit with 8 Bit footage will only increase CPU overhead with less real time performance and require more disc space.

                      I know you are a full on technical post person, and know all the above anyway, so please don't think I am trying to teach you to **** eggs. It's just that some of this info may help other Edius users, and hopefully remove some of the misconception that surrounds the use of Edius 5 and 6, and the HQ/HQX codecs.

                      10 Bit source footage is of course a different story.

                      Cheers mate.

                      Dave.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Dave

                        I found this company a while back and use their XDCAM & MXF Decoders.
                        http://www.calibratedsoftware.com/

                        They allow you to disable the QT gamma adjust during decode.
                        They are not all that cheap but they work mighty fine so I also got their decoders for DV50 , DV100, and MP4 EX.

                        Regards
                        Ronnie
                        System 2: Gigabyte GA-890FX UD7MB, CPU: Phenom II 6 Core Proc. @ 3.1 Ghz, RAM:16GB Vengeance RAM 4x4GB, Graphics Nvidia GTX560ti, 1x240GB OCZ SSD system, 4x1TB WD Black Ent. Drives Raid 0. LAN NAS 6TB backup.
                        O/S Windows 7 64bit Pro SP 1, Edius 6.5.2 Boris Red 5.22, VMW 5, Imaginate 2.0 5, Vistitle, LGx2 Blu-ray. 2xw2228h Monitors. HDSpark, BM UltraStudio SDI Capture & Playback,Sony 17" BVM SDI, Sony 32" LCD, Edius KB, Intuos 4 Tablet

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by abcronnie View Post
                          Hi Dave

                          I found this company a while back and use their XDCAM & MXF Decoders.
                          http://www.calibratedsoftware.com/

                          They allow you to disable the QT gamma adjust during decode.
                          They are not all that cheap but they work mighty fine so I also got their decoders for DV50 , DV100, and MP4 EX.

                          Regards
                          Ronnie
                          Hi Ronnie.

                          cheers mate will check it out.

                          Thanks.

                          Dave

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi all.

                            I have done a test between Edius and FCP with Sony's XD CAM formats, here are the results.

                            Going from Edius with the XD CAM exporter, in either EX or 422 to FCP via the Sony plug works. Exporting from FCP via the Sony plug in either EX or 422, comes back to Edius with no shifting in anything.

                            Although the signal does go through re-compression a couple of times, there is no real visual resolution loss at least at normal 1:1 viewing on a large monitor. If you zoom right in, then you will see minor changes. I even done some processing in FCP, and this looked great coming back.

                            It seems that neither Edius or FCP does any kind of smart rendering even to untouched segments, but like I say still looks great.

                            Seems that Quicktime does not get in the way of things, even though FCP will use it internally.

                            Although this is no I frame high bitrate intermediate. It can be a very useful work flow for doing trips between the NLE's for most AVCHD/MP4/MPEG2 type camera work.


                            Cheers.

                            Dave.

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