Question, is it true or false

[dreaux]

Is it true or false that if I bring HD video into an HD timeline and convert to SD for Dvd that the video will look better than if I bring HD video into a SD time line and convert to SD for Dvd, all things being equal and using the same conversion process for both files?

[GrassValley_SL]

answer
OR: Why don't you try and judge which method works for you?
It's really simple.

[GrassValley_BH]

There's no universal answer, depends on the footage and what you do to it whether it's better to edit at your target output resolution or at a higher resolution.

[Jerry]

There are different methods of doing what you want. Do a search on the forum for Virtual Dub and TMPGE 5.

[Fred Dwyer]

Another point, if you edit in HD you have the option of zooming in (using layouter) on scenes where it might be advantageous, while retaining reasonable picture quality. Can't do that in SD.

[Andreas_Gumm]

HD-> SD itself depends on quality of your downconversion algorythm. Eidus has not the best one.

When did you do the last test in downconverting from HD --> SD?
It seems to me that EDIUS 6 does now a better job than in previous EDIUS versions.

[Proton]

It seems to me that EDIUS 6 does now a better job than in previous EDIUS versions.

I agree.

My last project was shot and edited in HD: First, HD elementary streams (see Anton's http://www.videoproductions.com.au/h...ay-export.html) were exported to make a Blu-ray using Pegasys TAW4 for the authoring. Then the Project Settings were simply switched to SD, a 'Sharpen' filter (setting 8 to 12) added to every V clip, the captions, graphics and credit roll re-composed to look clearer in the lower resolution (slightly larger fonts & stronger outlines or shadows), and SD streams exported to author a DVD using DVDLab Pro.

Caveat: In this case the original footage was shot back in 2008 at only 1440x1080, which does seem to convert to SD pretty well in Edius. I haven't yet tried to make a high quality SD DVD from more recent 1920x1080 material using Edius 6.

It may be that the Pegasys TMPGEnc 4.0 XPress or Mastering Works 5 conversion methods (See e.g. Anton's http://www.videoproductions.com.au/html/t5-hd-sd.html) give better results with 1920x1080 footage.

The thing to do is try different methods with a short excerpt from an HD timeline and see what they look like at the end of the whole DVD making process. (Trial versions of the Pegasys products are available.) You are aiming for pictures which are as sharp as very good SD-originated footage but without any nasty artefacts such as stepping on shallow diagonals or interlace flicker on fine horizontal edges.

The conversion may look softer than SD at first glance if you are used to cameras with a lot of artificial sharpening ('aperture correction'/'contour correction'/'detail'/'sharpness' etc.), but HD material converted to SD can have a lot of real detail without the cardboard cutout and black outline effects of in-camera edge enhancement. Adding a little Sharpness filtering on the timeline satisfies peoples expectations for SD sharpness.

[Andreas_Gumm]

Downconverting with Lanczos3 algorithm in TMPEG or VirtualDub brings still the best quality.
But EDIUS downconversion is really close to it on progressive material!

I will try a test with interlaced material & post the results here!

[dreaux]

Thanks all for your replys. They have been most helpful. I am now using
TMPGE Video Master works and see how it does. Just updated from TMPGE 4 Express.

[dreaux]

answer
OR: Why don't you try and judge which method works for you?
It's really simple.

Oh I have, I have. Just looking for another opinion.

[GrassValley_SL]

Brandon explained why it is difficult . That's why I always like or. :)
But you got some good advice let's hope you are happy with the results.

[Andreas_Gumm]

Downconversion HD->SD: EDIUS vs. VirtualDub vs. AVISynth

Downconversion test HD->SD:
EDIUS vs. VirtualDub vs. AVISynth

I have done some resizing tests with different tools to show how good EDIUS can downconvert HD material
in comparision to some common freeware tools!
If you are interested in how the result looks, feel free to download the Photoshop file from the following link:

http://www.multiupload.com/UU16DVBLZ0

The file contains different screenshots downconverted from different tools vs. EDIUS!

Test scenario:

1. processing downconversion in progressive style
2. processing downconversion in interlaced style

preparing the source file:
At first some test images with 1920x1080 resolution has been dragged to the EDIUS timeline (project settings = HD [email protected]).
After that the whole timline has been exported as Canopus Losless Codec AVI [email protected]

http://www.multiupload.com/3VEW2QSIZR

The tools with descriptions about how the conversion has been applied!:

1. AVISynth
   
   AVISynth is a script controlled frameserver. The easiest way to create AVI files is
   loading the scripts in VirtualDub & export these to new AVI's with the codec of your choice.
   
   1. SD [email protected]
   2. SD [email protected]
   
   The following script has been used for progressiv conversion:
   

   AVISource("CANOPUS LOSLESS.avi") [COLOR=Yellow]# loads an AVI file[/COLOR]
   converttoyuy2() [COLOR=Yellow]# does what it says[/COLOR]
   Lanczos4resize(720,576) [COLOR=Yellow]# [I]does what it says[/I][/COLOR]
   Colormatrix(mode="rec.709->rec.601") [COLOR=Yellow]# applies the correct color matrix coefficent[/COLOR]

   The following script has been used for interlaced conversion:
   

   setmemorymax(512) [COLOR=Yellow]# reserves RAM memory[/COLOR]
   AVISource("CANOPUS LOSLESS.avi") [COLOR=Yellow]# loads an AVI file[/COLOR]
   SBdeint (field_first=0) [COLOR=Yellow]# applies spatial bob deinterlacer, doubles frame number and framerate[/COLOR]
   converttoyuy2() [COLOR=Yellow]# does what it says[/COLOR]
   Lanczos4resize(720,576) [COLOR=Yellow]# [I]does what it says[/I][/COLOR]
   Colormatrix(mode="rec.709->rec.601")  [COLOR=Yellow]# applies the correct color matrix coefficent[/COLOR]
   assumetff()  [COLOR=Yellow]# & following commands re-interlaces to TFF[/COLOR]
   separatefields()
   selectevery(4,0,3)
   weave()

   external used filters
   • SBdeint Deinterlacer
     - Download: http://pavelsx.googlepages.com/sbdeint.rar
   • Colormatrix filter
     - Informations: http://avisynth.org.ru/docs/english/...olormatrix.htm)
     - Download: http://avisynth.org/warpenterprises/files/colormatrix_20070828.zip
     
     
   
   
2. VirtualDub
   
   AVI files can be loaded, resized & saved directly in VirtualDub except the color matrix conversion can't be applied.
   Actually no native VirtualDub filter is known for this conversion! Therefore AVISynth needs to assist with a little helper script!
   After the script has loaded in VirtualDub the built-in Lanczos3resize filter has been applied.
   
   It's not true anymore for upcoming releases because the color matrix change has been added in experimental beta version 1.10.1-test7!
   

   http://www.virtualdub.org/beta/VirtualDub-1.10.1-test7.zip

   
   
   AVISynth helper script:
   
   

   AVISource("CANOPUS LOSLESS.avi") [COLOR=Yellow]# loads an AVI file[/COLOR] 
   Colormatrix(mode="rec.709->rec.601") [COLOR=Yellow]# applies the correct color matrix coefficent[/COLOR]

   Two files has been exported, one with interlaced, the other with progressive processing settings in resize filter.
   1. SD [email protected]
   2. SD [email protected]

1. EDIUS
   
   The source file has been placed in the timeline of 2 different project types:
   1. project [email protected]50i (source file has been set as interlaced) --> export from timeline as SD [email protected]
   2. project [email protected](source file has been set as progressive) --> export from timeline as SD [email protected]

The result

progressive sources:

After comparing the screenshots there is one thing to say EDIUS downconversion has been improved since version 5.5.
Actually the resize quality of EDIUS is not so far away from VirtualDub & AVISynth when progressive sources will be converted.
VirtualDub & AVISynth will do the conversion just a little bit sharper, but with slidely more ringing on edges than EDIUS.

interlaced sources:

As you can see EDIUS conversion looks slidely a little bit smoother than VirtualDub. The result is much closer to Virtualdub than
in previous versions!

The Big Deal does AVISynth in conjunction with the SBdeint bob deinterlacer! Take a look at the raptor & the eye pictures
& switch between interlaced results of EDIUS, VirtualDub & AVISynth! The AVISynth conversion archives a lot of more details
compared to EDIUS & VirtualDub. The huge difference has been promised me a little bit! Wow!

In general EDIUS is better than it's reputation!
EDIUS conversion is closer to VirtualDub's quality than ever before!

Good to know! ;)

[HamonSerrano]

wow, that is some very good and detailed test session! :)

But what about the upsize quality? It was terrible in 5.5, much worse than the downsize quality in my opinion. Zooming into titles, or making 16:9 material from 4:3 letterbox videos was almost impossible with E5.
Is it improved as well? My copy of V6 is still in the box, so I don't know :)

[Andreas_Gumm]

As far as I can see, the upsizing quality is not as good as VirtualDub or AVISynth does.
Will do a similar test szenario later.

I estimate that nothing will catch the upsize quality of the SPLINE algorithm in AVISynth!
VirtualDub will do it comparable with LANCZOS3 algorithm!
Last time I did it in EDIUS the video was a little bit blurry, but not too bad.

I will test it in a similar scenario!

Btw, I've just used still images for the test. The result can be slidely different in real world scenario with real moving footage!

Cheers