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  • E6 Video/Black Levels + Waveform/Vector Scope

    E6 Video/Black Levels + Waveform/Vector Scope

    For the first time in almost 12 years I find myself using an NLE system without any type of I/O board. How does anyone know what their video and black levels are? Here are the items I am seeing via the waveform/vector scope within Edius 6.

    1) The Vector Scope only has a front end value if you are ingesting previously recorded material with Bars and we assume the recorded bars are correct. So generally the vector scope has limited value beyond the front end setup of a Color Balance filter before beginning my edit.

    2) The “New Clip” Color Bars do not reference BLACK at 7.5 ire. So in order to use these bars I must first add a Color Balance filter to get them to as close to specks as possible.

    3) A fade to the Edius Timeline shows the BLACK level to be “0” and there for I must create my own black matte to meet the 7.5 ire. Does anyone know the correct setting to make a Black Matte at 7.5 ire? I have tried mutiple filters and setting to create 7.5 ire and can get no closer than 7.2 ire and 7.75 ire for my Black Matte.

    So I am not sure if my comments above should have been directed to Tech Support or this Forum, but I had to start somewhere.

    While little of my work goes to Broadcast, I was trained to respect the Waveform Monitor. For those who just edit to edit may be doing the product some injustice when it comes to Black Levels. Running your video at “0” Black may make your blacks look rich and strong, however, you are actually destroying the details in your black areas.

    I should also mention that I did go through and read as many post as I could find with regard to these issues, but there was nothing related to E6 and I feel E6 should have its own set of threads just in case things changed between 5.0/5.5 to 6.0. BTW, I do recall E5 having a setting for either 0 or 7.5 ire for your project, but that is gone in E6.

    Lastly, has anyone actually checked the accuracy of the E6 Waveform/Vector Scope.

    Sorry for this long post, but as a newbie I have to be sure what I am seeing is true and correct so that I do not deliver a poor quality product to a client or get a Network mad at me for bad levels.

    Regards,
    Chuck

  • #2
    It all depends what you EDIT. If you material is SD or then yes you should monitor at 7.5 .
    That can be adjusted in the system setttings .
    When even have an emulation of 7.5 when chosing OHCI.
    In system settings go to preview device click the button on the right and adjust the setp for play back to 7.5 this will emulate setup.
    Steve

    Get Support or the Latest version of EDIUS:
    EDIUS support and Downloads

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    • #3
      Have never had any issues with range when editing in HD, either with file based video or SDI ingest. Do you have the option to look on a proper monitor through hardware, just to check actual output? If you are not ingesting with E6, where do your files come from and what format?

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      • #4
        Setup is a ntsc thing :)
        Steve

        Get Support or the Latest version of EDIUS:
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        • #5
          Originally posted by GrassValley_SL View Post
          Setup is a ntsc thing :)
          What is this NTSC setup difference with PAL when working HD? This may be the reason why I do not have any of these problems.

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          • #6
            In HD it is the same no setup.
            But NTSC requires 7.5 over analog except in Japan where is is 0. (digital is 0)
            Thus you need to be able to monitor you signal with the levels it will be aired.
            Still very important for many countries who still transmit NTSC

            HD broadcast are different.
            Pal is always 0.
            Steve

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            • #7
              Also remember that IRE Setup is an analog concept - technically it should not exist in the digital realm - whatever digital-to-analog hardware you use for output should automatically add IRE Setup on output, or remove IRE Setup on input.

              IRE Setup and Broadcast Safe colors are related, but still separate things.

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              • #8
                First off, I am amazed at how quickly I am able to get feed back. In addition, the feed back is with knowledge, insite and without any cheap shots. It is so good to have a new home.

                I am without an I/O board for E6 because business has been so slow. I have moved to Edius because Premiere has created such a deman for the most powerful and most expensive computer systems just for the software to function that I could not see the investment at this time.

                If I understand this correctly . . . HD is "0" ire and SD is 7.5 ire here in the USA?

                If the above is true . . . is there an easy way to modify a Project/Timeline to have E6 create one version in 7.5 ire for standard NTSC DVDs and then also flip the Project/Timeline to HD at 0 ire? I believe I am going to have a need to produce both versions and I do not want to build the program twice.

                There were other questions in my first post, but getting the Video & Black Level working properly for both HD & SD that I will just stay on it till it becomes clear.

                Thanks to all of you who took time to reply

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                • #9
                  I also have to add that the waveform vectorscope seems to be dying a quick death here. In broadcast training classed, it is surprising to see the number of people that have no clue what they are anymore.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chuck Bengele View Post
                    First off, I am amazed at how quickly I am able to get feed back. In addition, the feed back is with knowledge, insite and without any cheap shots. It is so good to have a new home.

                    I am without an I/O board for E6 because business has been so slow. I have moved to Edius because Premiere has created such a deman for the most powerful and most expensive computer systems just for the software to function that I could not see the investment at this time.

                    If I understand this correctly . . . HD is "0" ire and SD is 7.5 ire here in the USA?

                    If the above is true . . . is there an easy way to modify a Project/Timeline to have E6 create one version in 7.5 ire for standard NTSC DVDs and then also flip the Project/Timeline to HD at 0 ire? I believe I am going to have a need to produce both versions and I do not want to build the program twice.

                    There were other questions in my first post, but getting the Video & Black Level working properly for both HD & SD that I will just stay on it till it becomes clear.

                    Thanks to all of you who took time to reply
                    If you re-read Brandon his post and what I wrote earlier that any digital stream is 0.
                    7.5 only get applied to the analog out. (via component, composite, SVideo... SD)

                    Let me give examples. If you would have an card which can output analog SVHS the 7.5 would be added on the out so that the deck gets a correct signal at 7.5 .

                    Dvd on the other hand would be a stream with 0 because the player would add 7.5 when connected via component, SVideo, or composite.

                    When using ohci EDIUS emulates how your video will look with the 7.5 added but any stream exported will be correctly at 0 because as we explained digital should be 0. :)
                    Steve

                    Get Support or the Latest version of EDIUS:
                    EDIUS support and Downloads

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                    • #11
                      Brandon and SL.

                      Thanks for clearing that up. As I did mention it was HD I was talking about, I thought SL was telling me something I may have got wrong. Either way it looks like the MIP hardware and Edius do not need to be questioned about the analogue outputs. As I use these to output my charts to my crt for colour calibration. I should count myself lucky that I dont have to work with NTSC :)

                      Cheers.

                      Dave.

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                      • #12
                        @Chuck: During the (non-Japan NTSC) editing process, you don't need to worry about black level unless:
                        1. There is detail you need to preserve within the 0-7.5 IRE level
                        2. There are negative IRE values

                        You should worry about > 100 IRE levels and the visual look of any imported graphics, computer-sourced footage (scan-converted or video from computer output) or footage that has gone through any RGB processing.

                        Those types of clips are dependent upon the RGB<->YCbCr conversion formula used, so you need to pay attention to them to avoid crushed/muddy blacks and illegal/dimmed whites.
                        • One formula assumes the full RGB range should be mapped to the broadcast-safe range (for stills in EDIUS, this is the White setting)
                        • While the other assumes the full RGB range should be mapped to the full YCbCr range (for stills in EDIUS, this is the Super White setting)

                        As for the IRE Setup, the output hardware (or playback hardware in a file-based system) is tasked with adding IRE Setup on the analog output.

                        Thus the production process for NTSC 7.5 IRE Setup and NTSC 0 IRE Setup is supposed to be identical. Of course, because of mistakes, misconceptions and outright misinformation in many cases, 'tis not always the case.

                        Any video footage that claims to have been "compensated" for IRE Setup should definitely be looked at further. Sometimes they have raised/lowered black/white levels and require adjustment.


                        @Dave (Red Union Films):
                        Yes, you are lucky to be PAL. :)

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                        • #13
                          IF you shoot with a digital camcorder in SD or HD then IRE is 0. When you output for DVD or Bluray IRE is 0. The only time 7.5 appears is to record over an analogue interface to a tape deck that expects 7.5 setup or to output an analogue signal to a North American TV. HD TV's with HDMI is 0

                          In short, these days pretty much everything is 0. What you will find is that although the cameras should be at 0 they are not all there and I certainly have to adjust so the black levels look much the same.

                          Ron Evans
                          Ron Evans

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Red Union Films View Post
                            Have never had any issues with range when editing in HD, either with file based video or SDI ingest. Do you have the option to look on a proper monitor through hardware, just to check actual output? If you are not ingesting with E6, where do your files come from and what format?
                            I have 2 options to get material in: Sony HDV deck via 1394/Firewire or direct files via a secondary hard drive. However, as both of these units are digital I have no options to set black or video levels. When I used to capture on past systems it was all analog and the I/O boards had front end Proc Amps for pre capture adjustments.

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                            • #15
                              HDV does not need setup adjustment. It is digital: Rule says it stays at 0.
                              If you want to "color correct" or "grade" you can use YUV filter, 3 way color corrector .
                              Steve

                              Get Support or the Latest version of EDIUS:
                              EDIUS support and Downloads

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