new config questions

[noafilm]

Enterprise A$165
Black A$112

Thx for that, if I ever consider a raid the price difference is not that big and a well worth small extra investment considering the consequences.

[lonny]

but if you dont go raid and just have 3 separate drives for video storage, whats the downside to doing it that way?

[pjsssss]

pat do you have ssd on your main computer and what do you know about the wd black caviar harddrives. i thought they were stable ones to go with.

SSD is on my laptop. AS soon as the prices come down and the capacity goes up a bit they will be on my Main system.

[antonsvideo]

How much more expensive are such enterprise disks? If you take a 1TB wd caviar black disk and a "enterprise" disk, whats the difference in price?

Enterprise A$165

http://www.eyo.com.au/prod_E-WD1002FBYS_proddesc_Western_Digital_1TB_RE3_SATA_3.0Gb_s_32MB_7200RPM_WD1002FBYS.html

Black A$112

http://www.eyo.com.au/prod_E-WD1002FAEX_proddesc_Western_Digital_1TB_CAVIAR_BLACK_7200RPM_64MB_SATA_3_5YRS.html

[shueardm]

The demystifyer strikes again. :)
Thanks Brandon.

[GrassValley_BH]

Yup, for non-RAID or JBOD use, TLER doesn't matter. This also applies to most/all motherboard-based RAID or consumer-level RAID controllers, as well as RAID-esque stuff that state compatibility with Green/Blue/Black drives, like Drobo.

[noafilm]

Now that is very clear explained, that's also the first time I see it explained like this. So if I understand right; if you are handling video on separate disks that are not in a raid it should not matter that much if you have "regular" or "enterprise" disks but if you put them in a raid it certainly does as one error on one disk can cause a whole raid array to fail. That's pretty hefty stuff.
In that case I understand shueardm's earlier statement and the fact that Anton sleeps well at night. :)
In my case it does not matter that much as I don't work with raid.

[GrassValley_BH]

The fundamental difference (RAID-wise) between the RE drives and the standard Caviar Green/Blue/Black is TLER.

TLER is what can "break" RAID.

Here's how it goes...

In a standard drive without TLER, if there is a drive error, the drive will essentially stop communication with the system while it tries to correct the error (moving data from the bad sector to a spare sector).

In normal desktop use, this isn't a big deal. The OS lets the drive handle error-recovery. If there's an error, the system "hangs" for a bit, then resumes. This is why I tell people to check their drives when they say their system "stalls" a lot - because oftentimes it is the sign of a drive going bad - it's recovering a lot of sectors.

However, in a RAID environment, to borrow a quote from KH, "that's where the wheels fall off." (Non-consumer-oriented, ie. Enterprise) RAID controllers expect to do their own error correction/recovery on the drives and expect immediate response from the drive.

Now, when you put a drive that does its own error recovery into a controller that expects immediate response, when an error occurs, the drive does not respond immediately (because it's busy correcting the error), which then makes the controller think the drive has failed. The controller then tries to apply its own error correction/recovery, which then causes even more delay. At worst, multiple drives time out concurrently and the array goes down because too many drives have been "lost" even though they're technically still good. At best, performance is degraded.

In the RE drive, TLER limits the amount of "stall" the drive can cause due to its internal error recovery. This keeps the RAID controller from thinking the drive has timed out, and therefore avoids the potential "multiple drives are gone" problem.

So, if you're using an enterprise-class RAID controller (Areca, Adaptec, 3ware/AMCC, etc) verify that it works properly with your chosen drive model(s) before using them to avoid catastrophe later.

[PaulTV]

I use Crucial 6gbs Sata III SSD drive for my system - it loads and performs like a rat up a drain - forget spinny discs for system, but always use Win7 64 bit and get a decent mobo that supports fast sata III.

Paul

[noafilm]

but if a drive does fail, I must take the time but I will have no data loss

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the enterprise disks are no good, they certainly are better then your "average" disk but just to say that I have not had one disk fail on me the past 5 years (knock on wood) and I have always used WD drives, their WD caviar black line are also labeled as "top-of-the-line" drives which I use now. As I see it any drive can fail but if you set up your system right the dataloss can be avoided almost completely. That's why I just ask myself if the higher price of enterprise disks is a necessity to run your video business?
How much more expensive are such enterprise disks? If you take a 1TB wd caviar black disk and a "enterprise" disk, whats the difference in price?

Blacks do work in RAID, they are for consumers who don't make a living with them.

Thxs for the link, that's interesting to know. But to say that they are used by consumers that don't make a living with them? I run my videobusiness on "regular" drives and I make a living out of it.

[shueardm]

Blacks do work in RAID, they are for consumers who don't make a living with them.

From the WD site.

*Business Critical RAID Environments – WD Caviar Black Hard Drives are not recommended for and are not warranted for use in RAID environments utilizing Enterprise HBAs and/or expanders and in multi-bay chassis, as they are not designed for, nor tested in, these specific types of RAID applications. For all Business Critical RAID applications, please consider WD’s Enterprise Hard Drives that are specifically designed with RAID-specific, time-limited error recovery (TLER), are tested extensively in 24x7 RAID applications, and include features like enhanced RAFF technology and thermal extended burn-in testing.

[antonsvideo]

I hope you do have a copy of your important data on other drives anyway? :) I would never trust important data to one disk only, even if it was an enterprise disk. I'm not sure if WD can guarantuee 100 fail safe operation for years on those disks?

If you would link several disks into a raid which allows swapping defect drives without dataloss then I don't see a reason why one would invest in a lot more into enterprise disks? WD black disks would do the trick just a s well and at a much lower cost and performance wise I'm not sure if there would be significant differences as well?

i am using 24/7 drives in order to avoid a drive failure even in raid5 because it takes time to rebuild the Raid and I don't have time, but if a drive does fail, I must take the time but I will have no data loss

I shoot on XDCAM disks which are stored on a shelf, so the original footage is never lost even if all drives blow up at the same time

[noafilm]

I've read some place in the net that WD hard drives like the Black or the green editions are'nt good for RAID at all. they will break the array! so if you do go with RAID stay away from them.

It would be good to see a link reg that statement, the WD black drives are supposed to very good and reliable drives, don't see a reason why they can't be placed in raid?

I don't use black or green, I use 24/7 enterprise drives that are designed for 24/7 operation and cost far more than black or green, but I sleep well at night

I hope you do have a copy of your important data on other drives anyway? :) I would never trust important data to one disk only, even if it was an enterprise disk. I'm not sure if WD can guarantuee 100 fail safe operation for years on those disks?

If you would link several disks into a raid which allows swapping defect drives without dataloss then I don't see a reason why one would invest in a lot more into enterprise disks? WD black disks would do the trick just a s well and at a much lower cost and performance wise I'm not sure if there would be significant differences as well?

[shueardm]

I am not sure why they call them Greens, because they become landfill, so not really green

lol. They are good for Media Centers and PVR's Anton.

[antonsvideo]

I had an SSD - lastest 3 months.
WD Blacks are OK, not as good as WD enterprise, don't use Greens.

I am not sure why they call them Greens, because they become landfill, so not really green