Reducing Edge Tearing and/or Moire on SD Downconversion

[tarkken]

I recently picked up the new Panny HPX2000 - it's the new native HD chipset 2/3" cam that records to P2 - SD, 720HD & 1080HD. This camera takes beautiful HD images - I'm noticing some edge 'warbling' and edge tearing (1080 60i pans/pulls - house siding, fencing, car grills, etc - detail moire?) when playing the native DVCPROHD 1080 footage (P2 - 1280x1080i) /downconverting to 4x3 SD in Edius. Seems like I may need to pull the detail out a little in the settings or change coring (something that I didn't notice quite as much when downconverting H1/Z1 footage).

Perhaps that's the nature of the beast when downconverting source with so much detail, or depending on what monitors you're playing it back on, but again, I don't remember it being as 'pronounced' with other HDV images being downconverted the same way. It seems to follow into SD DVD's as well, when you export into Procoder2 from the timeline.

The same footage in when selecting HD in the project settings (full HD 1920x1080i or DVCPROHD 1080 (1280x1080i) looks incredible - no noticable moire/tearing as when it's downconverted.

Any suggestions? I'd like to shoot everything HD now, thus building an HD library - and downconvert to SD 4x3 letterboxed or 16x9 wide DVD's for current clients without HD playback, with the option to get Blu-Ray copies if/when they can utilize them.

Tried some antiflicker, and tried changing some of the Horizontal/Vertical & Master Detail in the camera - also coring - but that's softening the image as well. Can't quite seem to get it.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks.

BTW - Canopus SP system - been great for everything thrown at it so far.

[Roy Colquitt]

How/at what stage are doing the downconversion?

[tarkken]

I'm trying to edit with the native HD P2 files on the timeline. When I change the project settings to SD 4x3 or SD 16x9, I get realtime output downconverted (letterboxed or widescreen). If I select HD project settings, I get HD.

The downconverted (live playback & exported to procoder for DVD) files are really tearing on the edges and showing warble/moire. It's a showstopper - clients will notice and comment. It seems far more severe/digital in Edius as compared to me playing the same content downconverted from the camera itself on the same monitors.

My hope is to shoot and edit everything in HD - make/keep an HD master, and be able to also produce a solid SD downconvert for 99% of the clients. I'm starting to think that I may need to play the HD master from Edius realtime through an AJA downconverter into a DV deck - then recapture and make a DVD. I hope there's a better way...

[Khoi Pham]

This a well know bug, I have been bugging them for over a year to fix this but nobody cares,do a search, oh you can't do that on this new forum, but you can edit in HD, make your master tape to HD, and then switch your project to D1 or DV then convert to MPEG2 and you will have no stair step artifacts, be careful with titles, blend filters with blur, 3D PIP and similar stuff that required changing resolution and you should be ok.

[tarkken]

I've tried burning some test 'master files':

DVCPROHD footage from HPX2000 camera (1280x1080i) on:

DVCPROHD 1080i timeline - exported to Canopus HQ file or
Full HD timeline (1920x1080i) - exported to Canopus HQ file

If I take that final file and place it on a DV 4x3 timeline and export to Mpeg 2 via Procoder 2 - I still get the jags/tearing on the final DVD.

I've done this successfuly before with HDV footage (Canon H1/Sony Z1). You notice some jags - but it doesn't seem as severe by any means. Perhaps this is an Edius vs. DVCPRO issue?

I tried the same source footage on an Avid Adrenaline HD system today - it looked great in both HD and SD downconverted... Of course, this makes me think it's an Edius issue. Talked with tech support and I'm going to try to send some files in to them.

In the meantime, I'm thinking I may need to downconvert live from the editor as HD 1920x1080i via Aja boxes and feed an SD deck - then re-injest and burn an SD DVD. Hope not, but it may be my only current lifeboat. I may lose the jags, but I assume I'm going to lose color and detail in the transfer as well.

[Khoi Pham]

Must be a Edius & DVCPro issues then cuz, HDV from Sony or Canon 1440X1080i has no stairstep if you switch your timeline to DV or D1 first. I feel for you.

[THoff]

The believe the video from the HPX is still progressive even when recorded in an interlaced transport stream -- the HVX certainly works that way.

I think the problem is with the workflow and an overlooked field order setting somewhere along the way.

[tarkken]

The same footage looks/works great downconverted on an Avid (I don't say that often).

I've tried changing the field order in many combinations and project sets - that really causes obvious problems - far worse than what I'm talking about.

I'm going to send them footage - I'm starting to think it's an Edius DVCPROHD issue.

[THoff]

Almost all the video I edit is in DVCProHD format from my HVX200, the P2/MXF support is what got me using Edius in the first place. I create SD DVDs (previously using Procoder Express for Edius, now using Procoder 3), and have not experienced your problem.

I've used 720P/24PN, 720P/30PN, 720P/60P, 1080i/24PA, and 1080i/30P material, transcoded using PCE and PC3, and then authored progressive DVDs using Ulead's Moviefactory 6+ (yeah, it is lame but it works), and never seen any edge tearing.

[tarkken]

I've got the 200 as well - I don't recall the same issue. I've also shot with the SPX800 (2/3" SD P2 cam) as well - Edius is great with P2 - of course the frustration I'm running into.

I don't know what's going on - unless it's a significant increase in resolution (which is possible based on the glass and the front-end chipset).

[tarkken]

Update

Wanted to update. I tested some similar footage (pans/pulls of the same houses, etc) with my HVX200 (the little handheld guy everyone has - not the big 2000) in 1080 60i mode. I also notice the jagging & warbling/moire, although it's not as pronounced. I also think there is a clear difference in resolution between these two cameras - obvious expectation, which may be magnifying the effect.

Enter Frankenstein. I stuck some AJA converters after my Edius SP breakoutbox...

Edius SP breakout - HD YUV Output (either Full HD (1920x1080i) or DVCPROHD 1080i (1280x1080i) project setting) into:

(1) AJA HDYUV to HDSDI converter (can embed audio too if you want) into

(1) AJA HDSDI to Analog SD Component or Composite Downconverter.

The same footage looks great... Jags are smoothed, moire is less, and you're not offended by the images... It's a dramatic improvement.

Obviously there's something going on in the cross/downconversion - smoothing, tossing lines/data away?

This isn't an ideal workflow, but it does give me 3 HDSDI outputs on my Edius system. The downconverter box adds 1 frame of latency.

I guess I can edit in HD and now monitor in both HD & SD. To do a downconvert, I will currently have to play a final HD master clip on the timeline and feed it realtime into an SD deck. I'm going to experiment in putting a firestore on the deck as well, using the deck as an A/D converter. I'll have to see how much detail/color I lose in the transfer, but currently it's an option - maybe the only one?

Would definitely like to find an 'in computer' transcoding option. This gets me started anyway... For now, I'll either have to redigitize back from the SD tape via firewire to an SD timeline or reimport the Firestore files hooked into the SD deck - then export back to ProCoder and author an SD DVD. The full sized HD master can then be sent into the BluRay authoring for a BluRay. Seems like a really funky workflow, but it's the only thing I've got right now.


BTW - I may have noticed the same thing on that Avid Adrenaline machine (which also provides an SD downconverted signal on the fly). When this footage was in an HD timeline, the HD & SD outputs looked great. When this footage was on an SD timeline (still as native HD), the jags seemed to pop out, similar to what I was seeing. Nature of the beast?

[tarkken]

Previous Post Premature

Did some more testing tonight - the transfers back really don't look good - soft - loss of color, still warbled (for what reason I don't know).

I really feel stuck...

[Khoi Pham]

I like to try it on my system, can you upload a few seconds of it?