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  • jonandmarkuk
    replied
    If it's any help I have already made a feature request for SFP to plug into Edius and from the reply I got from Smartsound they 'are' interested in doing this but Canopus wasn't?

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  • T-Bone
    replied
    a great read :)
    and the beginning was only 15 years ago

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  • GrassValley_BH
    replied
    Okay, time for the long explanation...

    In the beginning, there was Video for Windows (VfW) and the data-wrapping file format AVI.
    Video for Windows AVIs are often referred to as "AVI 1.0" AVI files.
    Video for Windows AVIs were originally limited to 1 GB maximum size, but the size was later extended to 2 GB.

    FAT (FAT16) was the filesystem used at the time.
    FAT has 2GB maximum file size, and a 2GB maximum volume size (in NT you could format a FAT volume from 2GB up to 4GB with 64KB clusters, which can be problematic).

    Circa Windows 95, ActiveMovie was introduced. ActiveMovie still used AVI. ActiveMovie later morphed into DirectShow. DirectShow is often referred to as "AVI 2.0"
    At the same time, FAT32 was introduced.
    FAT32 has a 4GB maximum file size, and a 127GB (Win9x) or 2TB (WinME, practical limit due to partition table) maximum volume size.

    Meanwhile, there's NTFS, used by various versions in NT, 2000, and XP.
    NTFS has a current practical limit file size and volume size of about 32TB.

    Matrox and some others proposed an extension to AVI 1.0 called OpenDML, which was later implemented in AVI 2.0. This extension allowed AVIs to be larger than 2GB.

    Canopus had its own extension of AVI 1.0, used in its applications, called Reference AVIs. This allowed a single AVI up to 4 GB, and multiple "reference" data files, allowing the total content to be over 4 GB.

    So, a particular AVI file can be one of four types - Video for Windows aka "AVI 1.0" or DirectShow aka "AVI 2.0"
    It's worth noting here that it is possible to create a "partially backward-compatible AVI 2.0" file, but the ability for VfW to access the AVI content is limited to the first 1, 2 or 4GB of the AVI, depending on the method the program uses to access it.

    And the filesystem the AVI is stored on can be one of three types - FAT (FAT16), FAT32, or NTFS

    This gives us this for maximum AVI sizes by AVI type and filesystem.
    • Video for Windows (AVI 1.0)
      • FAT (FAT16): 4 GB (2 GB practical, safe)
      • FAT32: 4 GB (2 GB practical, safe)
      • NTFS: 4 GB (2 GB practical, safe)
    • Canopus Reference AVI
      • FAT (FAT16): 4 GB (2 GB practical, safe)
      • FAT32: slightly over 2 TB (127 GB, practical, safe)
      • NTFS: slightly over 2 TB (2 TB, practical, safe)
    • DirectShow (AVI 2.0)
      • FAT (FAT16): 4 GB (2 GB practical, safe)
      • FAT32: 2 TB (127 GB practical, safe)
      • NTFS: 32 TB (2 TB practical, safe)
    And then comes the further confusion. When DV came onto the scene, Microsoft defined two "types" of DV AVI files. This was because AVIs traditionally held two streams - the video stream and the audio stream. That's why you see a lot of interleaving references for AVIs - that determines how the audio and video data are arranged in the file so they can be accessed in sync. The DV format datastream, however, includes both audio and video multiplexed together.

    Thus, two methods for storing DV data in AVIs (aka DV AVIs) were defined. The logic is there, but the naming makes it confusing, as it is opposite of the AVI 1.0/2.0 referencing.

    "Type 1 DV AVIs" are DirectShow AVIs with the DV datastream in the vids stream. There is no decoded audio track.

    "Type 2 DV AVIs" are Video for Windows AVIs with the DV datastream in the vids stream and a copy of the decoded audio in the auds stream. The copy of the audio allows traditional Video for Windows applications to decode the audio properly for playback and manipulation. However, this can lead to problems, as described further.

    Audio troubles with Type 2 DV AVIs...
    Because the audio exists both in the DV datastream in the vids stream of the AVI, and in the auds stream of the AVI, any changes to the audio need to be made in both the DV datastream and the audio in the auds stream. This would ensure that the audio is correct regardless of whether the audio is being decoded from the DV datastream stored in the vids stream, or simply being pulled from the audio in the auds stream.

    However, programs that are not "DV AVI aware" would read the AVI as a normal AVI, assume the audio only exists in the auds stream, and therefore modify the audio in the auds stream, without modifying the audio in the DV datastream. This leads to discrepancy between the audio tracks. Playback of the AVI from an application that pulls audio from the auds stream (traditional AVI playback) could play entirely different audio from a DV AVI aware application that decode both audio and video from the DV datastream.
    This is why in "the old days" sometimes you'd get a Type 1 DV AVI that played back with "wrong" audio in one application, but "right" audio in another - a bit of an "audio split-personality" problem.

    3-hour limit of Canopus Reference AVIs
    Since the AVI 1.0 maximum safe AVI file size is 2 GB, and the audio is being stored in Canopus Reference AVIs, there is approximately a 3 hour limit, assuming 48 kHz 16-bit stereo audio.

    Okay, that's the end of today's lesson. Those of you whose heads have not exploded, please do the rest of the class a favor and scoop up the excess brain matter of your fallen classmates so nobody slips and falls.

    Hope that helps explain things.

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  • kwshaw1
    replied
    Originally posted by tingsern View Post
    I just did one DVCProHD AVI - 720 25p over 50i. Duration is 9 minutes. After exporting the stuff from EDIUS timeline (in DVCProHD), the file is only 2.274GB. Hence your 4 minutes for DVCProHD must be referrring to 1080i or even full HD (1920?) ....?
    DVCProHD uses ~1 GB/min (including metadata) at the maximum bit rate of 100 Mbps, then drops proportionately for some of the 720p recording modes. At 25p on 50i, the bit rate should be half of maximum, or about 4.5 GB for 9 minutes. Not sure why your file size is half again that...

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  • shueardm
    replied
    Yes, it was a FAT 16 limitation, my mistake.

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  • GrassValley_MD
    replied
    Originally posted by tingsern View Post
    That's exactly what I have been doing all this while. A big problem with this approach is with HD ... I hit the 4GB AVI file limit and is making things very messy. Basically, I have to split the export of long timelines into several portions and it is almost impossible to know beforehand (because of compression) when you are getting near the 4GB AVI file limit.

    You are safe here (I have a feeling I am way late here).

    There was a two gig limit many years ago with type 1 AVI files but there is no limit any more.

    You do have to make sure that you have your drives formatted with NTFS though :)


    Mike

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  • GrassValley_BH
    replied
    It gets a bit confuuuusing.

    By Microsoft's original definition (now lost somewhere)
    Type 1 DV AVIs are DirectShow-compatible AVIs and therefore can exceed the 2GB limit.

    Type 2 DV AVIs are VfW-compatible AVIs and are subject to the 2GB limit, and also carry a decoded audio track in the auds stream.

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  • shueardm
    replied
    Type 1 still has 2Gb limit. We use type 2 AVI nowadays to get around it.

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  • tingsern
    replied
    I just did one DVCProHD AVI - 720 25p over 50i. Duration is 9 minutes. After exporting the stuff from EDIUS timeline (in DVCProHD), the file is only 2.274GB. Hence your 4 minutes for DVCProHD must be referrring to 1080i or even full HD (1920?) ....?

    Leave a comment:


  • THoff
    replied
    4GB is only about 20 minutes of DV25/HDV, or as little as four minutes of DVCProHD. The AVI container format wouldn't be viable if it still had a 4GB limit.

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  • tingsern
    replied
    Thanks for killing one scared cow for me. I was under the perception (old times) that AVI files have a 4GB limit. I guess that was the old rules that has to be tossed into the dustbin. If that is being the case, I will continue to do my music as per normal - finish editing the timeline using EDIUS, then export the entire file to AVI and then use SonicFire Pro to score the video.

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  • THoff
    replied
    No, there is no limit on the size of AVI files. I routinely work with files much larger than 4GB.

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  • tingsern
    replied
    No FAT32. I am using NTFS all these while. But, I thought AVI files has a limit of 4GB per file? Yes? I hope I am wrong ...

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  • Zorro
    replied
    4GB limit??? Do you still use FAT32?

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  • tingsern
    replied
    That's exactly what I have been doing all this while. A big problem with this approach is with HD ... I hit the 4GB AVI file limit and is making things very messy. Basically, I have to split the export of long timelines into several portions and it is almost impossible to know beforehand (because of compression) when you are getting near the 4GB AVI file limit.

    Leave a comment:

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