HD Multi Cam editing - issues

[AlexandreCardoso]

Hey, guys!

This is my first post here, and I already need some help.

I'm a new user of the Edius editing system, still making my way through the platform, and I've got myself a headache: we have recorded a concert by an Orchestra last Monday:we used 5 Sony EX1 and one Z1N. It all looks great, but the files are too heavy to do the multi cam editing in Full HD. I know is should make the conversion of the files, so I can edit in SD and then, go upscaling to wrap it up... But how do I proceed with the conversion: which is the best (lightest) format for a 6 sources multi cam edit? And how do I make the upscaling when the editing is done?

I know that this might be easy for some of you, but is very tricky to me!

Thanks for all the help!

[sunflow]

Do you have HD STORM with your Edius?

[Rusty]

You're asking a lot of any edit machine, but I'd give it a go in full rez first.

Have you tried skipping frames during Multicam edits?
Mode>Skipped Frames

[Ron Evans]

You could convert 4 of the camera output to HQ and run the other two native. I edit multicam with two tracks native ( HDV and/or EX ) and two or three AVCHD cams converted to HQ. My PC is a Q9450, 8G RAM running Vista 64. I run the HQ files off a RAID 0 and the two native files from separate hard drives. Not a particularly powerful PC by todays standards. Timeline is 1920x1080 full HD preset as I find this runs smoother than the 1440x1080 preset and handles the AVCHD converted HQ better ( AVCHD cams are 1920x1080 source). In fact the 1440 preset would not run consistently with this timeline.
You could convert all to HQ but would result in very large files and the need for a fast RAID or several fast RAID's or hard drives. I would convert one track at a time until things run OK for you. Decide which camera is going to be used the most and keep that native on its own hard drive, convert the ones that will be used the least on a RAID and convert them to HQ. IF you have a fast PC with lots of fast RAID then convert them all.
In my case alternate full stage cameras and a side view camera are AVCHD converted to HQ on the RAID 0. The closeup camera and main action camera(mostly FX1's HDV) are left native on their own hard drives.
HQ is not an SD conversion and the timeline will export to HD directly. The files are easier for the PC to manipulate but the data rate is higher so places bigger demands on the hard drives for throughput. In your case with 5 EX's try converting the Z1 HDV to HQ first. IF the EX1's were set to 1440x1080 set the timeline to 1440x1080 too not Full HD. You can still render a full HD output when you have finished editing and go from the anamorphic 1440x1080 to the square pixel 1920x1080.
What were the EX1's shooting? IF all the cameras were shooting 1440x1080 and you put them on a 1920x1080 timeline then I would understand the PC not being able to run. IF they were 1920x1080 then the Z1 conversion may be the problem for multicam to run.
Ron Evans

[Bassman]

Ron has good suggestions.

I would ask:

How many hard drives do you have access to?
Do you have a RAID setup?
Have you tried turning off "filters" in the multicam settings? - this should help

As Ron stated, the Z1 footage would be the first camera I would convert to HQ as it is not full raster. The EX should play fine.

Try to spread the source files on as many hard drives as possible or on a RAID setup.

[AlexandreCardoso]

Thanks for all the information, guys... i'm reading them all.

I actually converted every camera to HQ files - around 120 gb each, which is a quite a lot. And that didn't work either, it's still a heavy duty for the machine. Even though they are spanned through 4 differentes hard drives, 3 of them are connected via USB, so that's a turn off. :-(

I'm not the regular editor in the place i'm working, so the local hard drives, which are faster, are quite messed up, and I don't have time to organize everything. Even though I'm using 4 hard drives, they don't have that many free space.

As Ron asked, the EX1 cameras were set to 1920x1280... Did a test then: I right-clicked the EX1 file on the BIN and then chose FILE>Convert ... was that right? I generated a Low Bitrate SD file and it worked OK, just to make the multi cam test.
Today I left the machine running to do a High Quality SD downconversion of the files, so I can work tomorrow doing the edit seing things better than that messy image on a lower bitrate file.

I'll let you guys know how things go, and I'll also try all your suggestions.

One last question: after I do the multi cam edit with the SD files, is it possible to reconnect the original 1920 x 1280 files so I can give my client a preview with a better quality?

Thank you very very much for this, and have a good night!

[antonsvideo]

you don't need to downconvert at all

simply switch your project setting to SD and do your edits

then switch it back to HD

no conversion took place

[Rusty]

Yikes!
This project will NOT edit over USB!

I fear converting to HQ Fine was considerable overkill.
Most of the concerts I record rarely run over 90 min,, so in HQ Std. Your files should be 35GB per camera, definitely easier on your system.

Did you try editing the files unconverted from the EX1's?
I do it daily and couldn't be happier.

Pull the drives out of the USB cases and cobble together a RAID-0.
This is still do-able.

How's summer in beautiful Sao Palo?

[SoundFreak]

USB will not sustain any constant high data rate by default, this is a limitation of the format, FireWire is a lot better but not advisable with so many HHD's.
Even the fastest machine available will not work smooth when storing footage this way, I even have my doubts when editing SD this way.

If this is a one time workflow I would say live with it, if this will be repeated often, a serious system rebuild is in order concerning your storage.

As Ron stated above, you don't need a very powerful system for multicam editing, when you match up (convert to HQ) all formats it is doable but not with 3 or more external USB HDD's, 1 or 2 FireWire drives might work, eSata would be great, better a stripe raid with 4 sata drives, standard 7200 rpm drive will be just fine for most occasion's :)

[SoundFreak]

Of topic ......
Rusty, how is your Drobo performing ?
Are you using it soley as backup or can you edit SD / HD(V) from it and how many streams ?
Sorry to the O.P.
On topic ......

[AlexandreCardoso]

How's summer in beautiful Sao Palo?

Well, Rusty, it's been quite a challenging summer here in Sao Paulo. Actually, since december it's been raining EVERY SINGLE DAY here, but heavily. And with that, the traffic problems that we have to deal with everyday get even worse, not to mention the huge amount of floods in the city.

Most of the population is not well educated and they don't know that throwing the garbage in the streets is something horrible. Because by that, when it rains, the garbage blocks all the sewers and with this, the strong water flow, well, can't flow! Tunnels get blocked, people living in the "favelas" become homeless, everything is falling apart. In the countryside of Sao Paulo some roads have now this imense gaps, and they can't connect the cities.
This is one of the worst beginning of a year for Sao Paulo, everything is so hard right now.
I hope the rain gives us a break in February.


-------

Back to the topic, I'm at work right now. And the only way to do the multi cam properly, with the conditions of my machine that I mentioned above, was to convert the original EX1 footage do SD files, and also, set the skipped frames to 5.
Luckily, our deadline to deliver the concerts is a bit far, so this 2 days that i lost with this problems were a good lesson. I will talk to the owners of the company about getting a RAID.

When everything is done, I'll put up a song or two for you guys to check out.
Thanks and a have a nice weekend!

[Martyn]

Did you try Antons suggestion?
It's what we do all the time, just change the project settngs to an SD project, do the edit and then switch back back to HD project.

If you create titles in the SD project check them when you go back to the HD project they can move!!!

Martyn

[AlexandreCardoso]

Did you try Antons suggestion?
It's what we do all the time, just change the project settngs to an SD project, do the edit and then switch back back to HD project.

Martyn

I've tried that, and even with Skipped Frames turned on max (5), it was still too slow. Like I said, i'm demanding too much of the machine. But I'll get that fixed after finishing this project!

[Bassman]

Do the HD files play on the timeline?

If yes, then they have a good chance of playing in multicam.

Have you tried turning off "Apply Video Filters". This has a large impact if you have filters on the tracks.

Just checking!