HD, IRE and Setup

[Bassman]

Hello,

I have recently moved to HD production and wanted to run some things by the community to see if you are exeriencing this.

Back in the SD days, when I edited a project for television consumption if I decided to put a file on the web, I would make a Windows Media file, place it on my site and the levels looked very similar to the DVD.

In the HD world, what looks correct on my production monitor for DVD use, turns out to look under exposed when I make a web file and put it on the internet.

So I am finding that I have to "bump up" any footage for web use.

Anybody else noticing this?

Is it possible that the REC 709 color space differs from the color space of computer screens and the difference between 16-235 IRE and 0-255 IRE really shows more?

I thought the HD material would be closer to computer screens...

BTW, my older SD material looks properly exposed on the monitor, so I don't think the monitor is out of calibration.

Thanks for your input.

[Khoi Pham]

If your current output for the web is quictime or h.264 or I think any of those mac file then yes it will appear wash out, this is a problem with them and not Edius, it is well documented and Apple is still slow on their feet to fix it for a couple of years now. If you are still making wmv files, and it looks washout then I don't know but when using Edius to encode, it will automatic add 709 to 601 color correction for you, if you make a HQ AVI and feed that to ProCoder, then you have to add that filter manually.

[Bassman]

Hello Khoi.

The files actually look darker when exported from the Edius timeline.

Are there any settings in the output module to adjust for this that you know of?

Thanks

[tingsern]

I use EDIUS to output HQ files, then use Adobe Media Encoder CS4 to convert that into H.264 format.

Play back the HQ files using EDIUS on my broadcast monitor - okay.

Play back the HQ files using Windows (any player that is capable of reading AVI) - okay.

Play back the H.264 using Apple Quicktime (on Windows) - colours are whitewashed.

But, when I upload the video (in H.264) into Vimeo, and play it back, colours look fine to me.

[Khoi Pham]

Hello Khoi.

The files actually look darker when exported from the Edius timeline.

Are there any settings in the output module to adjust for this that you know of?

Thanks

Not that I know, if you are sure that your computer monitor is calibrated right and so as your editing monitor, then in settings/hardware maybe you could change to 7.5 before you output.
BTW do you have superwhite check with 5.1? if you are still using 4 then it does not matter.

[Bassman]

Tingsern,

I tried the Adobe mediaencoder recently as well and the same milky appearance happened. Looks like a bug in the encoder to me as the HQ files look great.

Khoi Pham,

I am using Edius 5, but I do not know about the superwhite setting.

Could you tell me where to find this?

I just looked at my setup and it is at 0 IRE. I thought it was at 7.5

Getting confused now. I always had a 7.5 setup for DV. What is the best setting for HD?

Thanks.

[tingsern]

It might not be in the encoder - but the Quicktime decoder ...

[Claire]

Since I am in PAL land we never had "set up" 7.5 IRE but even so I am still fairly sure this was only ever meant to be used with analogue where the black level was normally set to 7.5 for broadcast but not digital (DV).

I am also pretty sure it is not used with HD format.

When I export from Edius with HQ codec where everything is or should be within legal limits of 100 IRE (16-235 RGB) and then then bring it into for example After Effects or some other PC RGB based program, it will appear too dark and over contrasted since AE assumes the 16 black level is zero RGB and the 235 white level is 255 RGB.

One of the things you can do in Edius before export is to add a YUV filter in Edius to convert these levels, you can also chose between two options in the HQ codec when exporting from such as After Effects - the "configure dialog in the HQ codec offers "RGB has ITU BT 601 range" (ie: 0,255) or "Convert RGB range (0,2555) as IRE (0,100).

If you import some RGB 0,100 stuff into Edius 5 you can select superwhite in the clip properties which converts it from PC to video levels (RGB 16-235), in Edius 4 you could add a YUV filter to do the same job.

It's important to understand what is going on when you pass the video file between different applications, the best way to keep an eye on this in Edius is simply with the waveform meter. Once you step outside of Edius you need to check other ways, for instance in After Effects use it's levels display, I have a third party waveform meter in AE.

[Khoi Pham]

You should leave it a 0ire, 7.5 is only for if your work is for broadcasting, I only suggested that just incase there is a wrong conversion somewhere that darkens your video.
Super white is under Setteings/Application Settings/Source

[Bassman]

Thanks for your replies.

That workflow for After Effects etc... is important to know, but the problem I am having is material edited in Edius 5 and exported for playback on the Internet.

Basically, I am doing what Claire mentioned. I put a YUV filter on the footage.

But I never had to do this in the SD days.

Just trying to find out why and how it is properly dealt with.

I really am not comfortable with needing to push the file just to get it to look correct on a computer screen. This increases noise levels.

I am calling tech support today to ask them.