does ACEDVio have the ADVC 100 artifacts?

[pinkish]

Hello,

A while ago I had an ADVC 100 converter that gave me some bit of trouble with artifacts. I thought the box was faulty so I exchanged it, but the result was the same - terrible artifacts.

Now, I want to buy the ACEDVio, but since it has the same encoding chipset, I thought I'd ask first before buying it.

My setup for the sample captures:

Toshiba mono VCR -> ADVC-100
vs.
Toshiba mono VCR -> cheap Acorp TV Tuner card

I would like to point out the artifacts on the PROTV logo, that surprisingly are not there with the cheap tv tuner! Please explain those and let me know if that's an issue with the ACEDVio or not... thank you!

[GrassValley_BH]

To answer you question - barring any extra noise introduced from the computer, you will get the same quality from ACEDVio as the ADVC100.

But I wouldn't consider what you're seeing artifacts.
It is more likely that one or more of the following is happening in the TV card capture:

1. a blur is being applied (or introduced) to the image, reducing the apparent amount of noise, but also decreasing the sharpness
2. the image is being deinterlaced
3. some other type of image processing is happening on capture

#1 and #2 are quite common on consumer cards. Blurring helps remove fine detail and makes the video easier to compress. The problem is, sometimes you want to keep those fine details.

I'm not sure why you're getting "buzzing" on the station logo in the ADVC capture. Maybe it's just the interlaced fields not matching up.

[pinkish]

[*]a blur is being applied [*]the image is being deinterlaced [*]some other type of image processing is happening on capture

Hello and thank you very much for your quick reply. I really need your input if i'm gonna buy the acedvio.

To answer your suggestions:

1. that does happen, i mean tv tuners are blurrier than capture cards, but the color saturation has nothing it do with that. it's bright red when captured by the tv card and dark red with artifacts when captured by the advc-100.
2. the image was interlaced in both samples
3. there is no other image processing done by the drivers or the capture software

To further explain, before sending the ADVC100 back, I've used it with a different PC altogheter, different VCR as well... same results!

I am being so keen on knowing this because I would like to know if it might be possible to get the same bad results by ACEDVio. And now, the new dealers of Canopus products in Romania have a strict policy of no return, and no showroom, so I would be stuck with the card and no money for my project.

[THoff]

In the examples that you posted, were both videos using the same codec?

[GrassValley_BH]

Yes, THoff's question is important. How are you capturing the signal (what software, codec, etc)?

[kbosward]

In addition to THoff's question, are you using exactly the same cables in both cases?

Finally, can you please capture exactly the same scene for comparison in both cases?

Ken.

[pinkish]

thank you guys for helping out. first of all, i don't have the ADVC 100 anymore, so i can't do comparisons anymore.

answers to your questions are:

- ADVC captures used the Canopus codec, tv tuner capture was uncompressed

- the signal was captured with different programs (scenalyzer for the advc, iuvcr for my tvtuner) BUT the preview showed the exact flaws (before any capture)

I am a not a newbie in setting up stuff and I used the same cables (high-end, payed a lot for them) in both captures.

[GrassValley_BH]

Well, it's kind of unfair to compare uncompressed with DV compression, but to give you an idea of what's considered "normal" in the DV compression space, Adam Wilt's DV FAQ has some nice information and pictures.

Two things are involved in video capture that will affect the image:

1. Chroma/Luma sampling
2. Compression format

The combination of the two can work together or against each other to affect the appearance of the compressed image.

The next factor is bitrate, in bitrate-adjustable compression formats. DV is fixed at 25 Mbps, so that's not a factor in this case.

[pinkish]

Well, you are right about chroma/luma sampling, but what anyone can see when comparing the 2 captures is:

1. the advc capture is a lot sharper, but has artifacts due to colors being too bright
2. the tuner capture is blurry, has the right colors but also has color bleeding

From what all you guys said, I understand that the ACEDVio may return the exact image as the ADVC, when confronted with the same source/signal. In that case, do you recommend another Canopus product that would do the job better? No artifacts, sharp image, no color bleeding (the best of both worlds, so to speak)... I am willing to spend, I just need to be sure before I do that.

[GrassValley_BH]

Hi pinkish,

Part of the color difference may be the difference between YCbCr (YUV) and RGB color spaces. Your TV capture might be RGB, but some cards capture YUY2 or YUYV.

If you're after quality, I'd skip DV compression altogether and get a hardware board like EDIUS NX or EDIUS SP that will let you capture to Canopus Lossless, Canopus HQ, or uncompressed.

Before we go forward though, can you describe more what you are trying to accomplish? Do you just have a large library of VHS recordings or are you doing something else?

[pinkish]

Hello and thank you for helping me out.

My tv card capture is YUY2, not RGB.

Back to what I need to do, so that you can maybe help me choose the best card for the job. I have a large library of VHS tapes that I want to bring to my hard drive in a form that keeps the quality (as good or poor as it may be, because I have different-quality tapes) intact.

My final product will be in the form of DVDs (with maximum bitrate within the DVD standards), so MPEG compressed. Maybe going for uncompressed would be overkill financially, but I'm open to any suggestions you might have, based on my needs.

Also, I'd like to keep my interfering with the source to a minimum, i only want to preserve the original:

VHS tape -> Canopus box -> AVI file -> encoding software (probably CCE with custom matrix) -> MPEG2 output

What's your take on it?

[pinkish]

no one visited this thread in the meantime? :(

[GrassValley_BH]

Sorry, I got a bit busy...

If your intention is to change the source as little as possible (and you are not editing the source), then the best solutions would be:

1. Good-quality hardware MPEG encoder board
   Capture directly from analog to DVD-compliant MPEG-2, then author DVD.
2. Capture the analog source as Canopus Lossless or Uncompressed, then encode to MPEG-2 using whatever your favorite MPEG-2 encoder is, then author DVD.

Method #1 avoids the AVI capture process entirely, which avoids any additional degradation from the compression there.

Method #2 uses Canopus Lossless or Uncompressed as the compression in the AVI step, so there is no added degradation from the compression.

[pinkish]

Thank you for replying, I promise not to bug you anymore after I have this figured out.

I would like to go with #2, because I want to convert the raw capture to MPEG in more than 1 pass (with CCE).

Which is the cheapest card that does Canopus Lossless or Uncompressed? And can I get it without editing software? I plan to use free DV capture software and will do no editing whatsoever.

[GrassValley_BH]

Thank you for replying, I promise not to bug you anymore after I have this figured out.

Don't worry about it. That's what the forum is for. :)

I would like to go with #2, because I want to convert the raw capture to MPEG in more than 1 pass (with CCE).

Which is the cheapest card that does Canopus Lossless or Uncompressed? And can I get it without editing software? I plan to use free DV capture software and will do no editing whatsoever.

Cheapest card right now would be EDIUS NX, and that includes the EDIUS NLE software because only EDIUS will "talk" to the hardware, so you need that to do the capture. Since you're working with standard definition only, the old single-board PCI/PCI-X EDIUS NX would be enough (you don't need the HD Expansion kit).

But if you'd be OK with Canopus HQ (not uncompressed, but better visually than both standard HDCAM and DVCPRO HD compression) and you don't need to get something within the next two weeks, check the website at the end of this week...